Sharp-tails petitioned for listing???

[1_pointer]

Found out Mon. that some groupse being led by Forest Guardians are petitioning the USFWS to list the Colombian Sharp-tail Grouse.

Anyone think this is necessary? Are they just trying to piggy-back on the attention that sagegrouse have been recieving?

I know there's a few here whom seem to have no problem finding some to shoot.

 

[mtmiller]

Are folks shooting Colombian grouse?

 

[1_pointer]

I didn't know there was more than one type of sharptail?

 

[Idaho Ron]

1-pointer, Our grouse here in Idaho are the Colombian's. The Birds in Montana are a different breed. I believe they are prairie sharptails. They look the same, act the same, and taste the same.
Do I think they need to be listed? i don't think so right now. So much of this is up to the land owners that have the CRP. I had heard that they were going to get to harvest the CRP for cattle feed during a drought. If they do this the listing might happen. Ron

 

[Ithaca 37]

Yup, the welfare ranchers hate seeing all that CRP growing and try everything they can think of to turn their cattle loose in it. They want the CRP payments and to be able to let the cows eat it, too. They pull that shit every time we get a few weeks without rain.

"Opening of CRP Acres for Haying"

http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/drought/crp05-04.htm

“Allowing CRP grazing gives cattlemen the additional flexibility to stretch available forage sources during a drought,” says Jan Lyons, Kansas cattle producer and NCBA president. “This will enable folks out in cattle country to better utilize all of their available grazing options for the remainder of the year.”

http://www.beef.org/dsp/dsp_content.cfm?locationId=45&contentTypeId=2&contentId=2676


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=CRP+cattle+feed+during++drought.+&btnG=Search

 

[BuzzH]

Would you expect anything less from the welfare ranchers?

 

[MarvB]

folks out in cattle country to better utilize all of their available grazing options

Correct me if I'm wrong but since when has CRP ground been one of their options?? That would definatly be crap, especially if it goes from grazing up to HAYING?
Nothing like eliminating the cover going into winter...morons!

 

[1_pointer]

Not that I disagree with the above about using CRP lands, BUT...either grazing, mowing, or burning can and I feel should be a part of sustaining many CRP lands. Without it can get to 'wolfie' or too much thatch. It can be done so as to maximize the benefits to the wildlife as well.

 

[MarvB]

Didn't think about that 1_pointer...good point about palatability and the composition of the CRP land in general. I was caught up on the mowing and what that could do to the gound cover in general...kind of like on the large tracts with no hedgerowing left.

Either way, it seems like betterment of the CRP isn't what is being considered here...just the feedsource for the bovine brigade!

 

[Nemont]

It amazes me the amount of stupidity you guys often display regarding issues you supposedly "know" about. On CRP you guys are idiots.

Got news for all you yapping about welfare ranching and haying or grazing CRP. First the land in CRP is nearly 100% private deeded land. I have read where both Buzz and Ithaca say they don't care about what happens to private deeded land. So now they change their tune.

You cannot hay or graze more then 50% and you must return or not take the annaul CRP payment on the lands hayed or grazed. You must plant the CRP back to native grass, no more crested wheat grass, and you agree to provide improved habitat, Either water projects or shelter belts or something. You must leave 50% for forage and for cover. Every year more CRP is lost to fire then will ever be grazed or turned to hay.

In order to hay or graze the land in CRP your county has to be declared a drought diasaster area or the local FSA must certify it as critiical to have the 50% forage removed ie. there is a disease or fire hazard. The hay or grazing right cannot be sold or given to another rancher, it must be used on your own place. So busting on ranchers over this is complete and total bullshit.

It is not a free deal and CRP's biggest supporters are sportsman. In many cases CRP has been detrimental to local ag. economies. Less fuel, parts, equipment and chemicals sold. Many farms are in CRP total and the owners now live in Phoenix.

So before you spout stupidity you may want to read up on the program before you infer things that are not totally correct.

I am curious if you guys think it is such an easy life why you aren't snapping up ranches with allotments as quickly possible because, according to you, there is free money out there.

CRP has been a good deal for wild life, a good deal for farmers and ranchers. It has been a bad deal for rural economies in some cases.

Nemont

[ 10-28-2004, 10:16: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[Ridge Runner]

Guys. I like reading this stuff as I may learn something I know nothing about, so how about a little help. What is CRP Just walking the fence here.

 

[Nemont]

Conservation Reserve Program. It pays farmers, not ranchers but farmers, to idle land classed as highly erodible. The payments are considered rents up on the land. The farmer must bid lands into the CRP program and the land must fit the criteria the program is looking to idle.

The farmer agrees to not farm or harvest the land for a set period of time, Usually 10 years. In the last go around the rules were changed to be more friendly to wildlife ie. native grasses and habitat.

Haying or grazing CRP is sometimes allowed if there is a compelling reason for doing it. Drought, which has to be classified as a drought, not just the local ranchers want to hay CRP lands.

Depending upon your bid and contract you may be required to shred the CRP land at least twice during the 10 year period. This is done to break up the bio mass and to improve grass quality. Haying or grazing can take the place of shredding.

There are many more rules and regs. but that is the nuts and bolts of it.... sort of.

http://www.fsa.usda.gov/dafp/cepd/default.htm

Nemont

[ 10-28-2004, 11:47: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[Bambistew]

Thanks Nemont... The third graders needed their daily lesson!

I think CRP is one of the best things that has EVER happened to benifit wildlife! Esecially the birds. As a sportsman I say turn it ALL into CRP!

 

[1_pointer]

Thanks for clearing up some of that for me Nemont. As you know most BLM isn't eligible so I haven't had much reason to know the rules/regs. I do feel that it is an EXCELLENT program.

 

[MarvB]

Nemont thanks for the spanking! I do appreciate the additional information and believe me (having grown up on a small ranch) you will never hear me use the term "welfare ranchers" or allude to ranching as being an "easy lifestyle!"

I didn't want to envision whole-scale haying of CRP cover (esp. nesting areas) it sounds like it is anything but and that the regulations are in place to prohibit such from happening. Again, thanks for the enlightenment!

 

[Idaho_Smiley]

I know that the CRP program has helped the birds in my area dramiticly and I am sure it is helping the big game also .

 

[Ithaca 37]

Thanks , Nemont, for that. Here's more:

http://www.beefusa.org/dsp/dsp_content.cfm?locationId=1601&contentTypeId=1&contentId=13954

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=crp+grazing+exceptions

I like the part about not grazing more than 50% of the cover off. How do the cows know when they're at the 50% mark? That would solve the whole overgrazing problem on BLM, too. We gotta get more educated cows!

 

[Ridge Runner]

Thanks Nemont from this 3rd grader also.

 

[Nemont]

Origninally posted by Ithaca:I like the part about not grazing more than 50% of the cover off. How do the cows know when they're at the 50% mark? That would solve the whole overgrazing problem on BLM, too. We gotta get more educated cows!

You know the more I see your posts the more I understand you know nothing about ranches, cows or cattle management. The above statement shows that you have no clue regarding rotations or how to even measure what forage is still remaining in any particular pasture.

I can't imagine how, with you having so little knowledge, you can even begin to complain about the health of any range land. If you don't understand the basics of how to take half the grass and leave half the grass then you should stop attempting to judge the quality of all grazing land until you get a clue on how to tell the difference.

I have yet to figure out how the anti grazing crowd has more back halves of a horse then there are horses.

Anyway Ithaca I would attempt to clue you in on how the ranchers who graze CRP figure out if 50% of the forage is grazed up but it would require some basic understanding of ranching principles and obviously you possess none.

Just as an example when we have grazed CRP is installed portable electric fence on the half to be grazed. It is simple and effective and relatively cheap. That is just one way to do it.

Nemont

P.S. You need to clarify your stand regarding private deeded land because I can find the threads where you say you could care less about private deeded land and are only concerned about Public lands.

[ 10-28-2004, 13:58: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[Nemont]

BTW did you read this link you posted?

http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/drought/crp05-04.htm

May 18, 2004

Opening of CRP Acres for Haying Raises Question: Is There Enough to Harvest
By Dwight Aakre, (701) 231-7378, [email protected]

Kevin Sedivec, (701) 231-7647, [email protected]

The opening of Conservation Reserve Program acres for emergency haying and grazing in drought stricken counties of North Dakota has provided welcome relief in drought conditions, but producers have to carefully assess if there is enough forage on the CRP acres to make harvesting worthwhile, says a North Dakota State University economist.

"Since CRP has been opened when significant drought conditions exist, the question of whether or not there is enough production to justify the costs of rental payment and harvest and hauling costs arises," notes Dwight Aakre, farm management specialist with the NDSU Extension Service. "If CRP participants are also livestock producers in need of hay, they need to determine whether the value of the hay to be harvested exceeds the sum of the payment reduction and the costs of harvesting and hauling of the hay."

In addition producers should compare the cost of this feed relative to alternative feed sources. "One should not automatically assume that CRP is a cheap source of feed. The livestock producer looking for CRP to rent is faced with the same costs since the CRP contract holder is not likely to accept less in rent than the reduction in payment and is prohibited from charging more," Aakre says.

The unknowns that impact the result include the yield per acre, the feed quality and the market price for CRP hay relative to substitute feeds, Aakre says. The average price for "other hay" as reported by North Dakota Agricultural Statistics Service for the last five years has been $36 per ton, so this may be used as a benchmark for the value of CRP hay. Assuming a one-ton per acre yield and a value of $36 per ton, the net return to haying CRP would be $36 per acre less the cost of harvesting and hauling and the reduction in the CRP payment.

Use-related costs per acre for mowing/conditioning are about $6.50 and for round baling about $9.50. Hauling costs vary with distance, but the most frequent custom rate reported is $2 per bale. Assuming a 1-ton yield per acre, approximately one and one-half bales per acre, harvesting and hauling costs amount to $19 per acre. Renting CRP or the reduction in CRP payment would be $8 per acre if the CRP annual rental rate was $32 per acre. The total cost per acre for CRP hay would be approximately $27.

If the yield was a ton per acre the cost per ton would be about $9 per ton less than the five-year average price for other hay in North Dakota. However, if the yield was only one-half ton, cost of this hay would be about $18 per ton greater than the five-year average. During the drought years of 1988-1990, the price of other hay averaged above $50 per ton in North Dakota.

Quality of CRP hay should be a consideration, says Kevin Sedivec, NDSU Extension Service rangeland management specialist. Protein content of new-growth grasses on CRP is likely to be around 10 to 14 percent. "But when you harvest you will also be getting a considerable amount of dead vegetation from previous years, especially since many of these CRP acres haven’t been harvested in several years," he says. The protein content of that vegetation will be 2 percent or less and other nutrients will be similarly low, he says.

"As much as half of the forage harvested may be of very little feed value, so the average protein content may be about 6 to 10 percent depending on the amount of alfalfa in the stand," Sedivec says. He recommends that producers have forage tested so that it can be accurately integrated into the feeding program

Before haying begins, CRP participants must file a request to hay CRP, identify the acreage to be hayed on an aerial photocopy, obtain a modified conservation plan to include haying requirements as determined by Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) and sign the Terms and Conditions for Emergency Haying of CRP Acreage. The annual rental payment will be reduced by the number of acres actually hayed times the per acre annual rental payment times 25 percent.

Haying is limited to one cutting and must be completed before August 31 or until disaster conditions no longer exist, whichever comes first. Haying and grazing are not permitted on the same acreage. One-half of each field or contiguous CRP fields must remain uncut in a contiguous block for wildlife .