Screwing over the Non-resident (or not)?

[Trial153]

No I do get that Iv tried justify it with its our funding when i go argue the uncles.

but what I don't think people get is the west is still by in large a bunch of old heads... and whining and b**ching isn't a satisfying taste to them. My uncles, dad, grandpa, would by happy to end nr hunting, by in large I think a large part of eastern montana... so I think if you want to even be included in the conversation with these guys your going to have to be productive and at this point the name calling and bs complaining is more of what I see as the old guys seeing it as "this is not the type of whining little b**ch$ we want here" If my eastern Montana family seen this, that's about exactly what they would say. It's a ranching community they don't really give a shit about nr feelings and if you should or shouldn't come... I can tell you that. I don't see the NR problem around my house but I kinda see some of the peices they have to the puzzle I didn't. There's still more respectable answers then not from most.. but I'd warn the whiney name calling crap isn't gonna win anyone's hearts over out west.

Everyone in here taking people's opinions, and acting like opinions can't change, as hard as a 20 dollar prostitute at the end of the month.

If the science allows NR harvest montana will be for it. as soon as herds start hurting like 4 6 7.. nr tags will be first. I'm just saying it's gonna help your conversion as how can we help get those numbers back? oh okay no does for 5 years or whatever it is... hey no problem.. your not helping with the well it's just gonna get 5 percent less you greedy prick. Yeah it will if we can't figure out how to help the herds.

Respectfully, I cant follow what that all was supposed to mean.

Nothing about the current trends should be giving NR a warm fuzzy feeling about what’s coming down the pike. I will show more respect for THE residents marginalizing NRs when I see them willing to get off the NRs license dole. And for that matter the federal dole that supports and subsidizes all the land YOUR animals live on.
And some residents of states are going wish the took a a little different stance when they looking out their resident opportunities drying up a bit and find themselves seeking some nonresident opportunities to supplement it….

 

[Nick87]

Not through the general draw, auxillary and kill permits. I heard a rumor this morning that all may be changing.

Gross. Well it'll make some people happy. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[Elky Welky]

I really like the shift in focus to habitat and access, and increasing herd size @Big Fin. But I really think those are only a few (critically important, to be sure) parts to the puzzle, at least here in Montana. Even though more people are moving here, residents aren't the ones putting the pressure on the landscape. The only way for MT to get to a 90/10 would be to repeal the 17,000 cap, close the unlimited B tag loopholes, and go LE across all units for residents, as well as increase the cost for residents to pick up the slack currently being covered by NR tag fees. And as I have pointed out, once the legislature gets any whiff at a loss of funding, even if it is incorrect to assume that there would be a funding loss, any legislative effort to make these changes will die.

The following is pulled from a FAQ sheet distributed during the last legislative session:

Why does there need to be a cap on NR tags?

Loss of access and habitat is one reason for this hunter crowding issue, but the sheer number of hunters needs to be addressed as well. Over the last decade, the number of Montana resident hunters has dropped by 7%. Yet during that same time frame, between 2012 and 2022, the number of nonresident hunters in Montana increased by 80%.

Permitted opportunities in Montana are already capped at up to 10% for nonresidents, which is a pretty standard ratio across the west. Looking at other mountain west and neighboring states, the percentage of hunting opportunities set aside for nonresidents generally range from 8% - 15%. It’s roughly twice that in Montana right now, with 29% of all licensed hunters in Montana last year (2022) being from out of state.

Landownership patterns have also changed over the last ten years. 1.5 million acres of
previously-enrolled Block Management properties have been taken out of the program, and the outcome is more hunters on the landscape with fewer places to hunt. This creates the following issues:
● Increased crowding on public lands and publicly accessible private lands
● Congregating huntable species onto inaccessible parcels, creating problems for landowners and
making it more difficult to effectively manage species to population objectives;
● Exacerbated conflicts between hunters;
● Stressed relationships between hunters and landowners;
● and decreases the quality of the Montana hunting experience for all, regardless of residency.

Aren’t nonresident licenses already capped?
No. The 1975 Montana legislature did cap nonresident big game combination licenses (deer and elk),
currently capped at 17,000. However, many loopholes and license add-ons have been created allowing an unlimited number of deer and elk hunters from out of state, plus many unlimited antlerless elk B and deer B opportunities for nonresidents. Outside of limited opportunities for permitted species like moose, sheep, goat, and antelope, virtually all other licenses and permits for huntable species are currently unlimited for nonresidents.

 

[Archer86]

@Trial153 Wyoming added nr elk tags this year and split regions how is that not a positive for nr.

Unfortunately colorado is getting it wrong only limiting archery otc they should be limiting all nr otc elk tags

 

[Nick87]

Obviously both would be a huge contributing factor but which would be a more a more attainable option? More animals on the landscape hunters already have access to?
Or more access that already has animals on it?

 

[seeth07]

Here is the elk population is the top 15 states from 2011 to 2024 summarized in a nice little chart. I wish I had a link to some overall tags issued for elk in various states from this same time period. I don't have any data that goes back to 2011 but perhaps I could dig it out or request it from state agencies. I would just be curious if the tag numbers have stayed roughly the same, increased or decreased over this same time period and compare it to the elk population estimate.

 

[BuzzH]

Gross. Well it'll make some people happy. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

What's gross is the way the GF is handling the whole thing. Most of the auxilliary and kill permits are going to Residents or NR that have relationships. The GF is not even giving out information to Resident hunters regarding who is participating in auxillary or kill permits.

I'm having a hard time finding anyone that is happy about this mess.

 

[Nick87]

What's gross is the way the GF is handling the whole thing. Most of the auxilliary and kill permits are going to Residents or NR that have relationships. The GF is not even giving out information to Resident hunters regarding who is participating in auxillary or kill permits.

I take it these are like a crop damage sort of deal?

 

[Archer86]

Here is the elk population is the top 15 states from 2011 to 2024 summarized in a nice little chart. I wish I had a link to some overall tags issued for elk in various states from this same time period. I don't have any data that goes back to 2011 but perhaps I could dig it out or request it from state agencies. I would just be curious if the tag numbers have stayed roughly the same, increased or decreased over this same time period and compare it to the elk population estimate.

View attachment 318041

Looks like Wyoming needs to cut some nr tags

 

[BuzzH]

I take it these are like a crop damage sort of deal?

Auxilliary hunts:

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Regulations/CH-34-Final-Clean_Signed.pdf

Kill permits:

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Regulations/Regulation-PDFs/REGULATIONS_CH56

 

[Trial153]

@Trial153 Wyoming added nr elk tags this year and split regions how is that not a positive for nr.

Unfortunately colorado is getting it wrong only limiting archery otc they should be limiting all nr otc elk tags

WY has ample big game opportunities for residents and NR, there shouldn’t be any talk about adjusting ratios. The only adjust should be actual tag numbers based on biologist recommendations

 

[wyoelkfan15]

Gross. Well it'll make some people happy. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Yeah, I mean it's not as nefarious as it sounds. Typically, the game and fish will try to contact active license holders for that unit and tag before just throwing out some extra tags. They've been doing this for several years.

 

[Jlindzard22]

Disappointing to be a NR. Everyone is in 98 % of states

Since this forum and my emails are full of people arguing about the difference between resident/non-resident treatment, Marcus and I figured we'd do a quick Fresh Tracks weekly on the topic. Hopefully people take away from this video the laws that allows disproportionate treatment, the risks of being too dependent on NRs, and a lot of other issues that revolve around this topic.

Summary: We have a state-based system. Residents benefit from non-residents in many ways. Residents are Beneficiaries and non-residents are stakeholders (big difference). Wildlife is separated from the land, defeating the "I pay taxes on Federal Land" argument.

Anyhow, always a fun topic to see the comments and realize how much hunters do/don't understand the basics of the systems we have and the history of how we arrived at these systems for allocating wildlife opportunity in disparate manners.

The biggest concern and threat is when we see a huge decline in huning applicants due to the fact tags become harder and harder. At the same time private land tags go up in value due to supply and demand. Then we move closer to a European model where onlt the rich can hunt.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah, I mean it's not as nefarious as it sounds. Typically, the game and fish will try to contact active license holders for that unit and tag before just throwing out some extra tags. They've been doing this for several years.

Nope, not like this...much different than what has gone on in the recent past.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

Nope, not like this...much different than what has gone on in the recent past.

Are they additional tags or something? I've had our local warden call me twice to see if I've filled my tag as a rancher in the unit would like some culled off their place.

 

[SAJ-99]

Whatever.

But, here is what I know. If Residents of any state are going to be doing 95% of the advocating for wildlife, 95% of the advocating for land management issues in their state, 95% of the boots on the ground projects, 95% of the the work attending legislative session, 95% of the work attending commission, task force, working groups, meeting with biologists, etc. etc.....AND still providing over 50% of the funding, it only makes sense that should get 90% of the opportunity.

In my experience of doing this kind of thing for well over 30 years now, the best advocates are always local. They're the ones that show up, they should get the biggest reward. They care a whole lot more than a NR about the wildlife, land, and things they enjoy in their state. Just the way it is.

That's why I was wrong about Arizona, they do nearly all the work and every once in a while ask for some assistance from NR's. I shouldn't be pissed that they want more opportunity for their Residents.

How about the guys that show up for projects get a free tag and the other 99% have to pay NR prices?

 

[BuzzH]

Are they additional tags or something? I've had our local warden call me twice to see if I've filled my tag as a rancher in the unit would like some culled off their place.

Yes, up to 5 per hunter and in addition to any that you may have held during the general season. Kill permits, a person can shoot as many as they want with no regard for Chapter 23 regulations, including not being required to have a permit at all.

Some of this went on in the past and I won't comment further than to say it was pretty bad.

Last year I heard of a Warden killing 40 elk, 2 guys got paid by the State 20K and used a State tracked vehicle to shoot 129 elk. This year 100 or so were killed on the hound by ranch hands at 5 per. We'll know more when the report for this year comes out later this year.

 

[BuzzH]

How about the guys that show up for projects get a free tag and the other 99% have to pay NR prices?

Maybe...volunteer hours for hands on are valued at $29/hour last I heard...so 67 hours of labor for a special fee elk tag.

Bring it....

 

[Hunt West]

Maybe...volunteer hours for hands on are valued at $29/hour last I heard...so 67 hours of labor for a special fee elk tag.

Bring it....

An extra preference point for one species of your choice for volunteering X amount of hours. Only valid once until you draw a tag.

 

[brymoore]

An extra preference point for one species of your choice for volunteering X amount of hours. Only valid once until you draw a tag.

I think Utah does something similar which makes me suspicious of the idea.