Salary & benefit negotiations

[Lostinthewoods]

To any HR folks, hiring managers, or career experts.....
I will be transitioning out of the military next year and I am road-mapping out my transition plan.

I've already got a manufacturing company very interested.
In order I: interviewed with the VP of HR, interviewed with the director of manufacturing, and interviewed with the director of manufacturing along with two program managers.
The feedback from my source in the company is that they want me for a manager position.

For the last almost 20 years, my salary was outlined by a structured pay chart, so I have zero experience with salary & benefit negotiations.

Here is where I am asking for any experience or guidance.
When dealing with negotiations do I need to "go for it all", remain humbly realistic, or find a happy medium.

Question 1:
With limited resources to pull data from, I figure this company pays approximately $85K to $110K for their managers.
One side of my brain knows I have years of leadership experience and come extremely qualified. (go for it all)
The other side of my brain knows I have leadership experience in a different field and no experience in this manufacturing world. (be realistic)
So what would you do?
Also is it fair for me to ask their manager's salary range in a discussion and then make my offer?

Question 2:
I would assume PTO for a brand new employee looks different from a seasoned employee.
That being said, are you able to negotiate PTO? Example - if a year 1 employee gets 1 day off a month but a 15 year employee gets 4 days off. Can I ask to be put somewhere in the middle?
Starting chapter two of life, an extra week of PTO looks better than an extra $XK a year in salary.

Question 3:
Is it ok to use other employment offers for negotiation or is that douchey. My entire career has been loyalty to the service.
With this company dealing with me early and working hard to possibly bring me in, I already feel a sense of loyalty.
If have other competitive offers come in, but this place seems like the place I want to work, would you let them know about the other offers in the negotiation or no?


I guess the last piece is are there any pieces of advice you can offer when dealing with hiring process, negotiations, etc.

Thank you for any advice that you might have.

- Lost

 

[Dsnow9]

105k

Pto should be negotiable but can depend on the company

Absolutely



You are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you. I think the key is being honest and genuine but that doesn’t mean you sell yourself short. Stick to your guns!

If the place is amazing and you want to be there you can be a lot more flexible on certain things. If it’s just ok make it worth your while. I would definitely use pay and pto as negotiations. They may be more mobile on one than the other.

 

[elkantlers]

Ask for much more than you expect to actually get.

 

[seeth07]

You are providing an offer to them rather than them giving you an offer?

I perform a few interviews a year and help craft the offers we create to those perspective employees in my department. I hear about the counters but it is my boss that actually has the power to work on those negotiations.

If someone in the interview talks about other places they are interviewing with and they make it seem like we are competing to "win them" they almost always never get an offer from us. So to your question 3, I think you would be taking the risk that they will view that as a negative quality and think less of you.

For your question two, the PTO we offer as a start is the most common thing people ask for more of and I did so myself. The baseline start of 10 days of PTO I was able to negotiate up to 13 days and we in general are pretty flexible with that.

 

[Ben Lamb]

1.) Your compensation should reflect your years of experience & skill development. Someone with 10-20 years experience should be demanding more than someone with 1-5 years experience unless they're overly gifted. Wisdom comes from experience. So does efficiency & increased profitablity. Shoot for the top end of the salary range given your experience.

2.) You only get what you ask for. Ask for what you want and let them counter. PTO is always a better option than extra cash in your second act.

3.) yes. Use your leverage to your advantage. The job market is competitive and if other companies are sniffing around then you are an asset that should have a fair market value. Loyalty to a company is great and all, but it must be earned. It's 180 degrees different than the service. Humility is always warranted but if the option isn't right and there are other opportunities then don't sell yourself short for something that you may end up regretting later.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

Lost,

PM inbound.

 

[npaden]

For our entry level people we have a very defined salary structure and if you ask for more than that we will politely say no.

For someone coming in with experience we would expect to have some negotiation for the salary and benefits. Ultimately we are going to want to make money so we have to factor in what we can charge that person out at in our line of work, but I would typically say something like "we are looking at XXX as your salary, is that what you are expecting?". If it is not then let them know. If it is then everyone is happy. I'm in the just be honest and it will all work out crowd. I realize that isn't always the case but I think for the most part people are wanting happy employees and are willing to pay for that. For us we calculate out a minimum of one year salary as the cost of training an employee to get where we want them to be so turnover is very costly. Again for experienced employees I would expect to negotiate for extra vacation days as well.

 

[Treeshark]

Sounds like a promising situation, @Lostinthewoods.

1. Ask them what their range is, yes. But don’t throw out a number on the first date.

2. A little abstract, but spend a few hours thinking about your BATNA (look it up if you haven’t heard before). What your alternatives are= what your leverage is.

 

[Sheltowee]

I would strongly suggest finding a salary report that sets out salary ranges broken out for industry, role and YOE, then adjust it for geographic location (I like the NerdWallet COL calculator for that). You can use that as a negotiating tool more effectively than giving the impression you are stoking a bidding war. Also... culture and fit are exponentially more important than straight cash. Don't feel obligated to jump on the first offer unless you feel completely comfortable with it.

 

[MNElkNut]

Typically in my industry they will make you an offer. then you can negotiate. I think it is important to read the room so to speak. I think it is okay to ask if the salary and PTO are negotiable. Their answer will sometimes surprise you. As far as using another offer as leverage, I think you can say something kinda vague that hints at other firms....then read their response.

I have no idea of PTO for manufacturing, but 48 days per year would be high in my industry even with experience in a manager role.

 

[Bob-WY]

How high up of.manager? How much h below an officer are you? Bonus structure? Retirement package? Consider it all an offer package, parts can be negotiated, the higher the level in most, the more you can negotiate. PTO is actually the easiest to negotiate.

Salary range for the job level should be available via HR. They should ask your salary desires. Be honest, ask on your upper end. Go to high they turn off.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Question 1:
With limited resources to pull data from, I figure this company pays approximately $85K to $110K for their managers.
One side of my brain knows I have years of leadership experience and come extremely qualified. (go for it all)
The other side of my brain knows I have leadership experience in a different field and no experience in this manufacturing world. (be realistic)
So what would you do?
Also is it fair for me to ask their manager's salary range in a discussion and then make my offer?

Question 2:
I would assume PTO for a brand new employee looks different from a seasoned employee.
That being said, are you able to negotiate PTO? Example - if a year 1 employee gets 1 day off a month but a 15 year employee gets 4 days off. Can I ask to be put somewhere in the middle?
Starting chapter two of life, an extra week of PTO looks better than an extra $XK a year in salary.

Question 3:
Is it ok to use other employment offers for negotiation or is that douchey. My entire career has been loyalty to the service.
With this company dealing with me early and working hard to possibly bring me in, I already feel a sense of loyalty.
If have other competitive offers come in, but this place seems like the place I want to work, would you let them know about the other offers in the negotiation or no?


I guess the last piece is are there any pieces of advice you can offer when dealing with hiring process, negotiations, etc.

Thank you for any advice that you might have.

- Lost

1: Do less. Don't bring up money - you let them bring it up with your information. I don't like to ask about salary ranges in interviews - usually a good topic in a follow up email post interview. Bringing up $ can make it seem too transactional for them.

2. Absolutely negotiate PTO. It's easier to give/award than salary. If the experience you have translates to what they're doing - start there. So if you have 15 years experience that's applicable- ask for the same that a current 15 year employee gets there.

3. It is douchey - whether its meant to be or not. It sounds stupid- cause the whole business of trading your time for money is transactional- but anytime I've seen/brought money up it doesn't end well and sours the rest of the mood. The only thing I would say if they asked about needing time to decide/etc is - I am weighing other options and continue to pursue the best option for my family.

 

[morley.tyler]

To any HR folks, hiring managers, or career experts.....
I will be transitioning out of the military next year and I am road-mapping out my transition plan.

I've already got a manufacturing company very interested.
In order I: interviewed with the VP of HR, interviewed with the director of manufacturing, and interviewed with the director of manufacturing along with two program managers.
The feedback from my source in the company is that they want me for a manager position.

For the last almost 20 years, my salary was outlined by a structured pay chart, so I have zero experience with salary & benefit negotiations.

Here is where I am asking for any experience or guidance.
When dealing with negotiations do I need to "go for it all", remain humbly realistic, or find a happy medium.

Question 1:
With limited resources to pull data from, I figure this company pays approximately $85K to $110K for their managers.
One side of my brain knows I have years of leadership experience and come extremely qualified. (go for it all)
The other side of my brain knows I have leadership experience in a different field and no experience in this manufacturing world. (be realistic)
So what would you do?
Also is it fair for me to ask their manager's salary range in a discussion and then make my offer?

Question 2:
I would assume PTO for a brand new employee looks different from a seasoned employee.
That being said, are you able to negotiate PTO? Example - if a year 1 employee gets 1 day off a month but a 15 year employee gets 4 days off. Can I ask to be put somewhere in the middle?
Starting chapter two of life, an extra week of PTO looks better than an extra $XK a year in salary.

Question 3:
Is it ok to use other employment offers for negotiation or is that douchey. My entire career has been loyalty to the service.
With this company dealing with me early and working hard to possibly bring me in, I already feel a sense of loyalty.
If have other competitive offers come in, but this place seems like the place I want to work, would you let them know about the other offers in the negotiation or no?


I guess the last piece is are there any pieces of advice you can offer when dealing with hiring process, negotiations, etc.

Thank you for any advice that you might have.

- Lost

Question 1:
With 20 years of experience, you should be aiming him on salary. Salary seems low. Revenue, size, number of employees, rough location, and industry, would help. Have you looked at comps via salary.com, Linkedin, or Glassdoor?
Question 2:
PTO is absolutely negotiable. I'd negotiate it after the salary, but an employee hired with 20 years of experience should not be getting the same as a 2nd-year guy (unless there's a Union involved) Also, don't feel like you need to trade PTO for cash.
Question 3:
Loyalty... That's a funny word in the corporate world. I've been a victim of that emotion, feeling like I'm connected to the brand and the people... then private equity eliminates your role as a matter of efficiency. I love my teammates at work, but not as much as I love my wife and kids. If you got hit by a bus tonight, any company would post your vacancy by week's end and they will only ever be as loyal as the law and or contract requires.
Take care of you.
Question 4:
I know you didn't ask, but if you've done your 20, you'll presumably have TRICARE for you and any family. You can find out what portion of any health insurance premium they might pay on an employee's behalf and negotiate to have those monies rolled into your salary as well.

 

[brymoore]

1: Do less. Don't bring up money - you let them bring it up with your information. I don't like to ask about salary ranges in interviews - usually a good topic in a follow up email post interview. Bringing up $ can make it seem too transactional for them.

2. Absolutely negotiate PTO. It's easier to give/award than salary. If the experience you have translates to what they're doing - start there. So if you have 15 years experience that's applicable- ask for the same that a current 15 year employee gets there.

3. It is douchey - whether its meant to be or not. It sounds stupid- cause the whole business of trading your time for money is transactional- but anytime I've seen/brought money up it doesn't end well and sours the rest of the mood. The only thing I would say if they asked about needing time to decide/etc is - I am weighing other options and continue to pursue the best option for my family.

I agree. I’ve been on both sides of the table. If an applicant gets pushy with money before an offer I lose interest. PTO discussions are fine.

Negotiating salary after an offer is fine too.

 

[2rocky]

It's not just money that makes the offer. Benefits, and what they costs you affects your take home.

401 k matching - is basically 100% return on investment. understand what their retirement funding looks like.

My first foray into the Corporate world I had 25 years experience in a similar industry and got the PTO I had in my previous role. That may be because it is a European company with that view of time off...

Ask questions around their offer...You want to appear to be whole-istic in your understanding of the compensation. Make your questions long term in nature and let them tell you how things will change/improve as you grow in the organization rather than making it seem like you are trying to cut a fat deal in the front end.

"What is the PTO policy for new starters and how does it evolve with more time as an employee?" "Does unused PTO roll over to the next year?" "How much can I carry over?" Rather than asking how much time off can I get? You are asking Hey I'm already planning on working more than you expect me to...


"Could you give me an idea of what sort of payroll deductions I could expect for medical, dental and vision benefits ?" Employers pay a lot for these benefits so they appreciate someone who is aware of the value.


"what is the general trajectory of someone in this role as far as salary, and promotion? Five or 10 years down the line? What is the review and goal setting process look like? Is that part of the Bonus or Incentive structure?" Focus on the future.

"Are there other benefits that I should factor into my calculations, such as allowances for education, retirement matching, vehicle allowances, expense accounts, memberships, etc.?"

 

[Lostinthewoods]

105k

Pto should be negotiable but can depend on the company

Absolutely



You are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you. I think the key is being honest and genuine but that doesn’t mean you sell yourself short. Stick to your guns!

If the place is amazing and you want to be there you can be a lot more flexible on certain things. If it’s just ok make it worth your while. I would definitely use pay and pto as negotiations. They may be more mobile on one than the other.

I've been interviewing them, but I've been focusing on the feel of the leadership team and culture. I really like the bold perspective. The easiest part of interviewing so far is all I have to do is be me. Then it's for them to decide if they want me around or not.

Logistically the place is a win. 20 minutes from home (so more time for the kid and hunting) and overall cost of living here is very nice. A military pension and the right job can continue to push quality of life in the right direction. Quality of life being defined as family time, hunting time, wealth accumulation, and giving increase.

You are providing an offer to them rather than them giving you an offer?

I perform a few interviews a year and help craft the offers we create to those perspective employees in my department. I hear about the counters but it is my boss that actually has the power to work on those negotiations.

If someone in the interview talks about other places they are interviewing with and they make it seem like we are competing to "win them" they almost always never get an offer from us. So to your question 3, I think you would be taking the risk that they will view that as a negative quality and think less of you.

For your question two, the PTO we offer as a start is the most common thing people ask for more of and I did so myself. The baseline start of 10 days of PTO I was able to negotiate up to 13 days and we in general are pretty flexible with that.

Full disclosure this is my lack of experience with this showing. I am preparing to give an offer because that is what I assumed I needed to do. I did dodge the question on the second phone conversation I had with the director of manufacturing. He asked me what type of salary range I was looking for. When he asked that I thought we were just having a meet & greet and I had no information to back me, so I just told him I am looking for an organization to embed in and grow more than worry about money right now. I told him I watch too many people chase money and end up in burn out positions or hate life. That bought me a pass for that time, but I want to be better armed if they ask again.
It's great to hear you negotiated up on the time off.

1.) Your compensation should reflect your years of experience & skill development. Someone with 10-20 years experience should be demanding more than someone with 1-5 years experience unless they're overly gifted. Wisdom comes from experience. So does efficiency & increased profitablity. Shoot for the top end of the salary range given your experience.

2.) You only get what you ask for. Ask for what you want and let them counter. PTO is always a better option than extra cash in your second act.

3.) yes. Use your leverage to your advantage. The job market is competitive and if other companies are sniffing around then you are an asset that should have a fair market value. Loyalty to a company is great and all, but it must be earned. It's 180 degrees different than the service. Humility is always warranted but if the option isn't right and there are other opportunities then don't sell yourself short for something that you may end up regretting later.

Lots of good advice in here, Ben. Thank you.
My Achilles heal is overthinking. I know I've developed the skills over the year through experience. I am probably underselling my experience year to year to their experience. It will be shell shock going from leading military members to civilians. Not impossible because I have the foundation to do it, but it will be eye opening for sure.

I plan to ask for the PTO big time. I was spoiled with 30 days off a year in the military. That usually equals hunting 5-7 states a year. So it'll be tough to get anything less than that or not have a path to get to 4 weeks within a few years of employment. That might be a pipe dream.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

For our entry level people we have a very defined salary structure and if you ask for more than that we will politely say no.

For someone coming in with experience we would expect to have some negotiation for the salary and benefits. Ultimately we are going to want to make money so we have to factor in what we can charge that person out at in our line of work, but I would typically say something like "we are looking at XXX as your salary, is that what you are expecting?". If it is not then let them know. If it is then everyone is happy. I'm in the just be honest and it will all work out crowd. I realize that isn't always the case but I think for the most part people are wanting happy employees and are willing to pay for that. For us we calculate out a minimum of one year salary as the cost of training an employee to get where we want them to be so turnover is very costly. Again for experienced employees I would expect to negotiate for extra vacation days as well.

This is great to hear, thank you. I'm also on team it'll work out. I don't think I am coming up with unrealistic expectations or have an inflated ego where I'll come in way too high with things. Right now knowledge is power and I just want to make sure I am doing this all the best I can. I don't like being in serious situations not properly armed!

Thank you again!

Sounds like a promising situation, @Lostinthewoods.

1. Ask them what their range is, yes. But don’t throw out a number on the first date.

2. A little abstract, but spend a few hours thinking about your BATNA (look it up if you haven’t heard before). What your alternatives are= what your leverage is.

I'm very hopeful for it. The people I've been talking about seem like a great team and that's big. The two people who started all this madness for me also love working at the organization. I just hope it continues to go well. I have a site visit after the new year and I am hopeful to get a better feel during the walkaround.

I've been staying far away in money talks so far so they learned who I was first.

I appreciate the BANTA tip. I am going to work on that!

I would strongly suggest finding a salary report that sets out salary ranges broken out for industry, role and YOE, then adjust it for geographic location (I like the NerdWallet COL calculator for that). You can use that as a negotiating tool more effectively than giving the impression you are stoking a bidding war. Also... culture and fit are exponentially more important than straight cash. Don't feel obligated to jump on the first offer unless you feel completely comfortable with it.

Thank you again for the phone call and mentorship. It's very much appreciated!
Those few minutes gave me a ton of useful tips and perspective that I can use.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Typically in my industry they will make you an offer. then you can negotiate. I think it is important to read the room so to speak. I think it is okay to ask if the salary and PTO are negotiable. Their answer will sometimes surprise you. As far as using another offer as leverage, I think you can say something kinda vague that hints at other firms....then read their response.


I have no idea of PTO for manufacturing, but 48 days per year would be high in my industry even with experience in a manager role.

Maybe I will be fortunate and they will make me an offer for me to then negotiate. I really like and live by the read the room piece. I've been trying to watch it so far in all my calls to make sure that I could not only get a fit of the leaders, but to also make sure I wasn't running rouge in the wrong direction.
I cannot even imagine having 48 days off. Military life has me accustomed to 30 days a year, but between us I'd be ok with 3 weeks to start as long as it had a track to grow and that I could carry time over. Timing is also everything too. If they give me PTO, but dont let me take in September or November then I think I need a different place.

Thanks again!

How high up of.manager? How much h below an officer are you? Bonus structure? Retirement package? Consider it all an offer package, parts can be negotiated, the higher the level in most, the more you can negotiate. PTO is actually the easiest to negotiate.

Salary range for the job level should be available via HR. They should ask your salary desires. Be honest, ask on your upper end. Go to high they turn off.

Based off how it was explained to me so far the hierarchy is director of manufacturing (location's top person), then program managers, then supervisors, then leads, then workers.
My role would be program manager.
My current role has me leading 230 members and comp is a little north of $90K a year, which for this location is very nice due to a low cost of living.

I appreciate the extra insight on thinking about stuff like bonuses, retirement, etc. I need to be looking at overall package and not just focusing on salary and time off. After I go visit the site in the next few weeks I am hopeful that it leads to a follow up discussion with HR so I can dig in on more information.

1: Do less. Don't bring up money - you let them bring it up with your information. I don't like to ask about salary ranges in interviews - usually a good topic in a follow up email post interview. Bringing up $ can make it seem too transactional for them.

2. Absolutely negotiate PTO. It's easier to give/award than salary. If the experience you have translates to what they're doing - start there. So if you have 15 years experience that's applicable- ask for the same that a current 15 year employee gets there.

3. It is douchey - whether its meant to be or not. It sounds stupid- cause the whole business of trading your time for money is transactional- but anytime I've seen/brought money up it doesn't end well and sours the rest of the mood. The only thing I would say if they asked about needing time to decide/etc is - I am weighing other options and continue to pursue the best option for my family.

This makes me happy because it hasnt been part of our three phone calls so far. I dodged it on the second phone call because I was under the impression it was just a meet and greet. I let him know that I was looking more for an organization to get into and grow verse knowing about a salary yet. I also wasn't armed with the right information at the time so I didn't want to say something ridiculous.
It's nice to see another plug for negotiating PTO. I'd be stoked if they went year for year for experience or even if they just increased it from their starting baseline for skills that I have if they don't want to do it based off years.

The last part is great and noted.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Question 1:
With 20 years of experience, you should be aiming him on salary. Salary seems low. Revenue, size, number of employees, rough location, and industry, would help. Have you looked at comps via salary.com, Linkedin, or Glassdoor?
Question 2:
PTO is absolutely negotiable. I'd negotiate it after the salary, but an employee hired with 20 years of experience should not be getting the same as a 2nd-year guy (unless there's a Union involved) Also, don't feel like you need to trade PTO for cash.
Question 3:
Loyalty... That's a funny word in the corporate world. I've been a victim of that emotion, feeling like I'm connected to the brand and the people... then private equity eliminates your role as a matter of efficiency. I love my teammates at work, but not as much as I love my wife and kids. If you got hit by a bus tonight, any company would post your vacancy by week's end and they will only ever be as loyal as the law and or contract requires.
Take care of you.
Question 4:
I know you didn't ask, but if you've done your 20, you'll presumably have TRICARE for you and any family. You can find out what portion of any health insurance premium they might pay on an employee's behalf and negotiate to have those monies rolled into your salary as well.

I'll dig deeper on research, but so far I havent found much. There was one site that had this job projected for approx 110-140K, but I think the data seemed a little high. Avg income for the town is approx $43K.
Revenue isnt consistent with what I've found, but let's say 150M-200M, 500-600 workers at this site, middle of Missouri in a "smaller" town (22K population), industry is all over the place in their different sections. Think anywhere from building subway/rail items to commercial cooking appliances and everything in between.

Noted and appreciated on the PTO information.

Double noted on the loyalty part too. Fortunately we get a taste of that while we are in. I'm working hard to prioritize me first; organization second, but that's a personal problem I have and need to fix.

You make a good point with the health insurance part. I will be fortunate enough to have it, but I am seriously considering finding a place with decent healthcare so their insurance can be the front runner with tricare being the secondary. I'm not sure how desired tricare is with certain doctors, specialists, etc and I want the option to be able to do what I need and when I need without golden handcuffs of tricare. But to your great point, if there is something I can cut them from having to pay in which tricare can cover, then I will bring that up.

Thanks again for this!

It's not just money that makes the offer. Benefits, and what they costs you affects your take home.

401 k matching - is basically 100% return on investment. understand what their retirement funding looks like.

My first foray into the Corporate world I had 25 years experience in a similar industry and got the PTO I had in my previous role. That may be because it is a European company with that view of time off...

Ask questions around their offer...You want to appear to be whole-istic in your understanding of the compensation. Make your questions long term in nature and let them tell you how things will change/improve as you grow in the organization rather than making it seem like you are trying to cut a fat deal in the front end.

"What is the PTO policy for new starters and how does it evolve with more time as an employee?" "Does unused PTO roll over to the next year?" "How much can I carry over?" Rather than asking how much time off can I get? You are asking Hey I'm already planning on working more than you expect me to...


"Could you give me an idea of what sort of payroll deductions I could expect for medical, dental and vision benefits ?" Employers pay a lot for these benefits so they appreciate someone who is aware of the value.


"what is the general trajectory of someone in this role as far as salary, and promotion? Five or 10 years down the line? What is the review and goal setting process look like? Is that part of the Bonus or Incentive structure?" Focus on the future.

"Are there other benefits that I should factor into my calculations, such as allowances for education, retirement matching, vehicle allowances, expense accounts, memberships, etc.?"

Another great post, all of it.... thank you so much.
I definitely need to cast my net wider and get a better understanding of things beyond just salary and PTO. I love the idea of employee matching and sexy retirement accounts. I cant even imagine getting overtime rates or a bonus, so these are all things Ill need a better understanding on.
I've been trying very hard to speak from a longevity stance. An organization that I can dig into and grow roots for years. So I definitely think they know I am not trying to use them as a stepping stone or that I'm a person who will be a career jumper.
After these few conversations and when I have my site visit, I might be able to illicit some of this other information by asking the questions you have above.
I would love to see any of those "other benefits" you mention.

 

[Lostinthewoods]

Thanks again, everyone. I appreciate this.