Salary & benefit negotiations
- Thread starter Lostinthewoods
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It's in Missouri. This part of the company is more rural than one of their larger plants in St. Louis.
I'll PM you the details to see if you still have the stance on the middle management piece.
I will be sure to clearly communicate this all. Thank you for the post and I am glad that your new job afforded you the PTO that you need.
Who knows. I could be doing all this prep and this company could tell me they are a non-negotiate company.
I am aware that my experience isnt year for year equivalent to their industry. They know I know that and I definitely am not trying to go that route when talking to them.
I do know that I have the skills desired though to fill these roles, so I think through some magical gonculator it'll still workout in my favor to some level.
Leading people, conflict resolution, problem solving, talent management, etc
It's eye opening and a learning experience that's for sure.
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This sounds like a dream!
Yeah dude, does to me too!
I was reacting to @seeth07, my time off doesn’t quite work like that (wish it did).
seeth07
Well-known member
I've been loyal to the company, the policy is you get 1 day added per year to the max of 25. I negotiated to start at 13 so I got up there faster. By default, the start is 8 days now so it takes 17 years of service to hit that 25 mark.
morley.tyler
Well-known member
Can you take an unpaid week? Ever asked?
seeth07
Well-known member
No, with some exceptions due to laws around medical, etc.
Forkyfinder
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I had an agreement with 2 previous supervisors to be gone for 3 months had I drawn a certain tag. PTO/personal time and then unpaid after.
Always worth asking
Forkyfinder
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Maybe I'm privileged here - but I always thought anything less than 4 weeks pto as a max was cheap? I've seen 4,5, 6 weeks pto pretty normal.
That could be, I don’t have a great frame of reference. 5 weeks for a guy @seeth07 age seems good to me.
Forkyfinder
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He passed a test an employer offered me 15k to take/pass (which i declined)- lots of bargaining power.
seeth07
Well-known member
When I got my offer, I didn't even have to give up anything to get the extra 5 days from 8 to 13. I showed back up with the offer, I redlined the PTO days from 8 to 13, put it on the table and showed them saying "I'm good with everything except this, if we can agree to this change, I'll sign right now and I'm on board. He smiled and told me to sign away.
Caterpillar is a union plant. Vacation time increased at set service time intervals topping out at 5 weeks (200 hours). We also had personal time that was separate which could be used in 2 hour blocks if needed as opposed to vacation days requiring the full day. I had 40 hours of that, giving me a total of 6 weeks possible. New hires today get much less. I rarely used it all and got paid for any unused time remaining at the end of the year.
TheDudeAbides
Well-known member
Everything as far as benefits is negotiable.
Never except the first offer and always counter.
Now to your questions
Question 1:
With limited resources to pull data from, I figure this company pays approximately $85K to $110K for their managers.
One side of my brain knows I have years of leadership experience and come extremely qualified. (go for it all)
The other side of my brain knows I have leadership experience in a different field and no experience in this manufacturing world. (be realistic)
So what would you do?
Also is it fair for me to ask their manager's salary range in a discussion and then make my offer?
It is fair to ask, but I would not expect an answer. They will tell you it is competitive for the industry. I would come up with a number you are comfortable with taking and then add 5k with your counter when they offer you the job. There are many resources for free on YouTube on how to counter.
One thing to avoid doing if you can is to be in a position where you lose leverage in negotiation. Lots of people that are leaving their job or want to leave their job settle for less, just for a fresh start. There will be another company, if this company does not give you what you want.
Most people do not realize the cost or time of hiring someone and if you are identified as a good fit, they do not want to lose you and start over.
For example if you have a 100k position and 10 applicants for the position. It can cost $4,500 and be 45 days just for the individual to be hired and can be more if interested individuals have to be brought in from flights. It can also cost in moving or relocation fees, for signing bonuses, etc. A company is not going to lose someone over 5 grand or an extra week of PTO after identifying the right candidate.
So that puts you in a good position to negotiate, but you have to be willing to pass on the job to put yourself in the best position.
Question 2:
I would assume PTO for a brand new employee looks different from a seasoned employee.
That being said, are you able to negotiate PTO? Example - if a year 1 employee gets 1 day off a month but a 15 year employee gets 4 days off. Can I ask to be put somewhere in the middle?
Starting chapter two of life, an extra week of PTO looks better than an extra $XK a year in salary.
Personally if I was in your shoes with your experience, I would not take anything less than 4 weeks PTO. Every company will try to start off at 2 weeks and prorated for the year you hire on. However, it really isn't much on the company to give another week or two to get their desired candidate. Once again, it is not cheap to hire someone and they will not lose their guy for another week. If the company is willing to lose their guy for an additional week of PTO, then it should be a job you should pass on. If a company is that cheap, then your job as a manager would be a living nightmare.
Another thing to find out during the site tours of interviews will be if the job is actually worth taking. Especially at a manager level, because some workforces will drain the life out of you and there is not an amount of money or there needs to be a personal tax on the company for your salary to deal with the headaches. If the company has a bad culture, I would personally avoid it. However, if you still want to pursue it then your salary needs to go up or you need to walk away.
Question 3:
Is it ok to use other employment offers for negotiation or is that douchey. My entire career has been loyalty to the service.
With this company dealing with me early and working hard to possibly bring me in, I already feel a sense of loyalty.
If have other competitive offers come in, but this place seems like the place I want to work, would you let them know about the other offers in the negotiation or no?
Yes. It is 100% ok, but you have to have actual employment offers. HR is a small world and if you are found out to be lying, you will not get the job. You may also damage relationships to everyone in that HR person's network making it difficult to find work. It is also good to find out what your market worth is and as mentioned before what is a number you can live with. Star employees are expected to negotiate and the more ammunition you have the better your position is.
As far as loyalty, you need to be only loyal to yourself and family. Almost any employer is going to cover their own interests over your interests. So, you should do the same. Look at it as more of a symbiotic relationship, where you both mutually benefit (mutualism). Like Bees and flowers. You do not want to put yourself in a parasitic relationship due to loyalty.
I guess the last piece is are there any pieces of advice you can offer when dealing with hiring process, negotiations, etc.
Use YouTube videos on anything you feel lacking in. Negotiation, Interviews, Counter offers, etc. It is free and often a great resource.
You also want to find out if the company is worth working for.
Which reminds me of this story.
A highly successful business woman was tragically knocked down by a bus and killed. Her soul arrived at the Pearly Gates, where St. Peter welcomed her:
"Before you get settled in, We're instructed to let you have a day in hell and a day in heaven, and then you are to choose where you'd like to go for all eternity."" he said
"Oh, I see," said the woman. "Can't you just let me in?"
"Well, I'd like to, but rules are rules" said St Peter
"Actually, I think I'd prefer heaven", said the woman.
"Sorry, we have rules..." at which St. Peter put the women into the downward bound elevator.
As the doors opened in hell she stepped out onto a beautiful golf course.
In the distance was a country club; around her were many friends, past fellow executives, all smartly dressed, happy, and cheering for her.
They ran up and kissed her on both cheeks and they talked about old times.
They played a perfect round of golf and afterwards went to the country club where she enjoyed a superb steak and lobster dinner.
She met the Devil, who was actually rather nice, and she had a wonderful night telling jokes and dancing.
Before she knew it, it was time to leave; everyone shook her hand and waved goodbye as she stepped into the elevator.
The elevator went back up to heaven where St. Peter was waiting for her.
"Now it's time to spend a day in heaven," he said.
So she spent the next 24 hours lounging around on clouds and playing the harp and singing, which was almost as enjoyable as her day in hell.
At the day's end St Peter returned.
"So," he said, "You've spent a day in hell and you've spent a day in heaven. You must choose between the two."
The woman thought for a second and replied, "Well, heaven is certainly lovely, but I actually had a better time in hell. I choose hell."
Accordingly, St. Peter took her to the elevator again and she went back down to hell.
When the doors of the elevator opened she found herself standing in a desolate wasteland covered in garbage and filth.
She saw her friends dressed in rags, picking up rubbish and putting it in old sacks.
The Devil approached and put his arm around her.
"I don't understand," she stuttered ,
"Yesterday I was here, and there was a golf course, and a country club, and we ate lobster, and we danced and had a wonderful happy time. Now all there's just a dirty wasteland of garbage and all my friends look miserable."
The Devil looked at her and smiled.
"Yesterday we were recruiting you, today you're staff."
Never except the first offer and always counter.
Now to your questions
Question 1:
With limited resources to pull data from, I figure this company pays approximately $85K to $110K for their managers.
One side of my brain knows I have years of leadership experience and come extremely qualified. (go for it all)
The other side of my brain knows I have leadership experience in a different field and no experience in this manufacturing world. (be realistic)
So what would you do?
Also is it fair for me to ask their manager's salary range in a discussion and then make my offer?
It is fair to ask, but I would not expect an answer. They will tell you it is competitive for the industry. I would come up with a number you are comfortable with taking and then add 5k with your counter when they offer you the job. There are many resources for free on YouTube on how to counter.
One thing to avoid doing if you can is to be in a position where you lose leverage in negotiation. Lots of people that are leaving their job or want to leave their job settle for less, just for a fresh start. There will be another company, if this company does not give you what you want.
Most people do not realize the cost or time of hiring someone and if you are identified as a good fit, they do not want to lose you and start over.
For example if you have a 100k position and 10 applicants for the position. It can cost $4,500 and be 45 days just for the individual to be hired and can be more if interested individuals have to be brought in from flights. It can also cost in moving or relocation fees, for signing bonuses, etc. A company is not going to lose someone over 5 grand or an extra week of PTO after identifying the right candidate.
So that puts you in a good position to negotiate, but you have to be willing to pass on the job to put yourself in the best position.
Question 2:
I would assume PTO for a brand new employee looks different from a seasoned employee.
That being said, are you able to negotiate PTO? Example - if a year 1 employee gets 1 day off a month but a 15 year employee gets 4 days off. Can I ask to be put somewhere in the middle?
Starting chapter two of life, an extra week of PTO looks better than an extra $XK a year in salary.
Personally if I was in your shoes with your experience, I would not take anything less than 4 weeks PTO. Every company will try to start off at 2 weeks and prorated for the year you hire on. However, it really isn't much on the company to give another week or two to get their desired candidate. Once again, it is not cheap to hire someone and they will not lose their guy for another week. If the company is willing to lose their guy for an additional week of PTO, then it should be a job you should pass on. If a company is that cheap, then your job as a manager would be a living nightmare.
Another thing to find out during the site tours of interviews will be if the job is actually worth taking. Especially at a manager level, because some workforces will drain the life out of you and there is not an amount of money or there needs to be a personal tax on the company for your salary to deal with the headaches. If the company has a bad culture, I would personally avoid it. However, if you still want to pursue it then your salary needs to go up or you need to walk away.
Question 3:
Is it ok to use other employment offers for negotiation or is that douchey. My entire career has been loyalty to the service.
With this company dealing with me early and working hard to possibly bring me in, I already feel a sense of loyalty.
If have other competitive offers come in, but this place seems like the place I want to work, would you let them know about the other offers in the negotiation or no?
Yes. It is 100% ok, but you have to have actual employment offers. HR is a small world and if you are found out to be lying, you will not get the job. You may also damage relationships to everyone in that HR person's network making it difficult to find work. It is also good to find out what your market worth is and as mentioned before what is a number you can live with. Star employees are expected to negotiate and the more ammunition you have the better your position is.
As far as loyalty, you need to be only loyal to yourself and family. Almost any employer is going to cover their own interests over your interests. So, you should do the same. Look at it as more of a symbiotic relationship, where you both mutually benefit (mutualism). Like Bees and flowers. You do not want to put yourself in a parasitic relationship due to loyalty.
I guess the last piece is are there any pieces of advice you can offer when dealing with hiring process, negotiations, etc.
Use YouTube videos on anything you feel lacking in. Negotiation, Interviews, Counter offers, etc. It is free and often a great resource.
You also want to find out if the company is worth working for.
Which reminds me of this story.
A highly successful business woman was tragically knocked down by a bus and killed. Her soul arrived at the Pearly Gates, where St. Peter welcomed her:
"Before you get settled in, We're instructed to let you have a day in hell and a day in heaven, and then you are to choose where you'd like to go for all eternity."" he said
"Oh, I see," said the woman. "Can't you just let me in?"
"Well, I'd like to, but rules are rules" said St Peter
"Actually, I think I'd prefer heaven", said the woman.
"Sorry, we have rules..." at which St. Peter put the women into the downward bound elevator.
As the doors opened in hell she stepped out onto a beautiful golf course.
In the distance was a country club; around her were many friends, past fellow executives, all smartly dressed, happy, and cheering for her.
They ran up and kissed her on both cheeks and they talked about old times.
They played a perfect round of golf and afterwards went to the country club where she enjoyed a superb steak and lobster dinner.
She met the Devil, who was actually rather nice, and she had a wonderful night telling jokes and dancing.
Before she knew it, it was time to leave; everyone shook her hand and waved goodbye as she stepped into the elevator.
The elevator went back up to heaven where St. Peter was waiting for her.
"Now it's time to spend a day in heaven," he said.
So she spent the next 24 hours lounging around on clouds and playing the harp and singing, which was almost as enjoyable as her day in hell.
At the day's end St Peter returned.
"So," he said, "You've spent a day in hell and you've spent a day in heaven. You must choose between the two."
The woman thought for a second and replied, "Well, heaven is certainly lovely, but I actually had a better time in hell. I choose hell."
Accordingly, St. Peter took her to the elevator again and she went back down to hell.
When the doors of the elevator opened she found herself standing in a desolate wasteland covered in garbage and filth.
She saw her friends dressed in rags, picking up rubbish and putting it in old sacks.
The Devil approached and put his arm around her.
"I don't understand," she stuttered ,
"Yesterday I was here, and there was a golf course, and a country club, and we ate lobster, and we danced and had a wonderful happy time. Now all there's just a dirty wasteland of garbage and all my friends look miserable."
The Devil looked at her and smiled.
"Yesterday we were recruiting you, today you're staff."
Forkyfinder
Well-known member
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- Dec 13, 2023
- Messages
- 2,673
Always crazy to me that employers can get away without paying vacation time for professional employees. Its against MT state law - but I've never wanted/had to push it, but all 3 places I've worked have not been in compliance with it. I think I can carry a week over now and usually don't have that much.
I've got friends who never get to take their promised PTO - and then lose it every year for free.
Sorta related but my wife just went through the interview and negotiations for a new job.
My amiable wife got upset with her current employer changed a benefit for her team. Minor issue but all the staff was upset.
A competitor heard of the issue and targeted my wife. Call Thursday morning to my wife, wife applied Thursday night, call by noon on Friday to schedule interview, interview Monday morning with an offer Monday afternoon.
Wife was only interested in seeing if she was getting paid what she is worth. She didn’t want to leave.
Salary was a good bump but she thought she could get her current employer to match or get close.
PTO was better at the new employer. Maybe her current would match but they had said no to adding days in the past. In the future, new company increased days at a better rate.
401k match. New company at 100% match up to 6% of salary. I looked at my wife’s current plan. It was a bonus based on company profitability. It was earned on a percentage basis each year for five years. Essentially a poor plan for employee retention.
She countered the offer with a bump in salary and more PTO. She received a hard corporate no on the PTO but received another salary bump counter offer.
After discussing the situation, wife decided she had to move. Her total package went up over 20%. Friendly wife got a little pissed when she compared the offer to her current package.
My amiable wife got upset with her current employer changed a benefit for her team. Minor issue but all the staff was upset.
A competitor heard of the issue and targeted my wife. Call Thursday morning to my wife, wife applied Thursday night, call by noon on Friday to schedule interview, interview Monday morning with an offer Monday afternoon.
Wife was only interested in seeing if she was getting paid what she is worth. She didn’t want to leave.
Salary was a good bump but she thought she could get her current employer to match or get close.
PTO was better at the new employer. Maybe her current would match but they had said no to adding days in the past. In the future, new company increased days at a better rate.
401k match. New company at 100% match up to 6% of salary. I looked at my wife’s current plan. It was a bonus based on company profitability. It was earned on a percentage basis each year for five years. Essentially a poor plan for employee retention.
She countered the offer with a bump in salary and more PTO. She received a hard corporate no on the PTO but received another salary bump counter offer.
After discussing the situation, wife decided she had to move. Her total package went up over 20%. Friendly wife got a little pissed when she compared the offer to her current package.
Jamen
Well-known member
Lots of good info here! i enjoyed reading it. I do not have a lot of experience with this. I have been at my current job for 9 years was my first real job out of college. I enjoy what i do. I work for the Govt so i dont get to negotiate these types of things. My situation is a bit different by board sets my pay and they have been good to me over the years.
I wish you the best!! Just dont sell yourself short. You are the only one that knows your skills and abilities and what those are worth to you! Thank you for your service!
I wish you the best!! Just dont sell yourself short. You are the only one that knows your skills and abilities and what those are worth to you! Thank you for your service!
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Great story and great perspective!
Some really great info in the post as well.
The nice thing about this job is I'm already living within a drivable distance to the site. So to your point, I could save them cash in relocation fees and could hopefully use that for the PTO talk.
My goal is to continue to research the culture and feeling from the organization. I've got a lot of experience being stuck with toxic people below me or above me, so I do have callus and can probably put up with more than the average joe, but that also doesn't mean I have to. Not unless maybe the $$$ is nice enough to deal with it. I'd rather find that sweet spot where money is right, people are right, culture is right, and I can focus on me. The goal is also to find a place where I can grow and have an upward track. I don't want to just get hired somewhere and sit stagnant for 20 more year. I'm pretty competitive and WILL be one of those star employees who can have more ammunition.
Thank you!
I cant imagine not taking my PTO. I've never carried any over in a year.....
Thank you for the play by play on her situation and huge congrats to her!
20% bump is never a bad thing and I'm glad she was able to see she was worth more. You probably already knew it, but this was a nice external validation.
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I've never heard of a board setting someone's pay. Kind of unique and sounds like it would keep people on their toes.
You don't want to be a lump on a log standing in front of a board that dictates your pay! Appreciate your post and support!
ismith
Well-known member
No doubt you and I know and worked with some of the same people over the years, I finished my career as a QC inspector. My mistake was leaving AD for the guard, but it mostly worked out for me in the end.
