Raffle tags - yeah or nay?

[idahohuntr]

What's really even more interesting to me, the argument that these tags do so much "good" with the additional money.

Does anyone truly believe that?

Since the conception of these tags, mule deer, goats, sheep, moose, pronghorn all doing like shit. I guess the "good" they do is just hard to see. But what isn't hard to see is the drop in population, drop in tags, etc. from all the "good" these set asides do for the beneficiaries wildlife.

What they do best is pimp out the cream of what's left of the wildlife crop year after year.

No, I do not believe for a second the funds raised move the needle one bit AND I also believe if the revenue were actually critical, there are many more ways to get it than pimping wildlife, AND I think the average beneficiary loses more than they 'receive' when it comes to raffle (or auction) tags.

In order for demand to be high the raffle (or auction) has to be highly desirable...meaning seasons outside normal tags, restricting harvest in some (or many) units so lots of trophy animals available, etc. This all comes at an opportunity cost to the average hunter.

 

[Sandbrew]

No, I do not believe for a second the funds raised move the needle one bit AND I also believe if the revenue were actually critical, there are many more ways to get it than pimping wildlife, AND I think the average beneficiary loses more than they 'receive' when it comes to raffle (or auction) tags.

In order for demand to be high the raffle (or auction) has to be highly desirable...meaning seasons outside normal tags, restricting harvest in some (or many) units so lots of trophy animals available, etc. This all comes at an opportunity cost to the average hunter.

@BuzzH and @idahohuntr I'd like to make the case that at least in Colorado we do see some very positive results from the Auction an Raffle funds raised with a big thanks to @Big Fin for allowing @Oak to promote those raffle on this forum. In 2005 when I was the President of the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society we used those funds to conduct a trap and transplant in January of 2005 to reestablish a sheep herd in the Zirkels, now S73 in Northern Colorado. I have been lucky enough to help a friend harvest a great ram there in 2018 on a tag he drew. He is one of about 35 ram public draw hunters and 16 ewe hunters who have had an opportunity to experience a sheep hunt in a unit with now 150+ sheep where there was ZERO 25 years ago.

 

[Letthemgrow]

What a ram

 

[idahohuntr]

@BuzzH and @idahohuntr I'd like to make the case that at least in Colorado we do see some very positive results from the Auction an Raffle funds raised with a big thanks to @Big Fin for allowing @Oak to promote those raffle on this forum. In 2005 when I was the President of the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society we used those funds to conduct a trap and transplant in January of 2005 to reestablish a sheep herd in the Zirkels, now S73 in Northern Colorado. I have been lucky enough to help a friend harvest a great ram there in 2018 on a tag he drew. He is one of about 35 ram public draw hunters and 16 ewe hunters who have had an opportunity to experience a sheep hunt in a unit with now 150+ sheep where there was ZERO 25 years ago.

That's awesome!

I have no doubt that funds raised from most raffles (and auctions) do go to good projects - and what a great example you provide here. However, my issue is that western State fish and wildlife agencies have a lot of resources and a lot of ways to generate revenue. Raffling/Auctioning wildlife is one way, but it ultimately comes at a cost to the average hunter. Well run agencies should prioritize their budgets - and really great conservation opportunities like re-establishing a sheep herd should not be at the whims of raffle revenue. The opportunity cost, the potential for misuse/abuse of raffle programs, and the belief that western fish and wildlife agencies can basically print any amount of money they want all leave me concerned that we are not getting the best allocation of resources by raffling wildlife. I say that with the complete and total acknowledgement that there are a ton of good projects/programs funded by raffles - that most volunteers and folks associated with the non-profits and raffles are top-notch folks, and those who participate in raffle programs are well meaning and generous.

 

[Pucky Freak]

One more day to vote. Buzz…forecast looks dim to support your claim.

 

[BuzzH]

One more day to vote. Buzz…forecast looks dim to support your claim.

Meh...I still don't like set aside tags.

They create way more problems than they solve.

 

[hank4elk]

If I had...
Bought a lot of raffle tickets, points, etc. RMEF,MDA,DU,CDA, etc. Hundreds on Caldera points...LOL.
Never even got a hat.
I did use some points to take a friend on his last hunts in 2 states. We got skunked but it was time well spent. $ well spent.

I put I wish they go away for some reason.

I won't buy any and haven't in years. Don't buy lottery tickets either.
Your choice how you spend $.

I had dropped my RMEF membership for a while. I just became a life member, just 'cuse I believe in the work and I like elk. Always have.
Spent several thousand dollars on elk enhancement projects to keep elk around and maybe get LO tags.
I will give those tags away or barter for goods,services for the ranch & me.

Just stuffed a twenty in the jar for local kids 4H. Naah,I don't want the tickets.

Pretty sure the LO tags are going away for me soon.
Oh well.
I will have elk around and the deer are coming back. Antelope holding their own,for now.

Oh,I did get a RMEF hat in he mail last week.

 

[Forkyfinder]

One more day to vote. Buzz…forecast looks dim to support your claim.

I mean - i dont really want to make a habit of defending buzz - but i dont think the poll accurately describes the scenario.

Am i okay with raffles that support wildlife? Absolutely. Am i okay with raffles for the cowboy joe club? Nope...

 

[TOGIE]

it really should be "yay or nay"

 

[Pucky Freak]

I mean - i dont really want to make a habit of defending buzz - but i dont think the poll accurately describes the scenario.

Am i okay with raffles that support wildlife? Absolutely. Am i okay with raffles for the cowboy joe club? Nope...

Cowboy Joe club big game tag raffles are few and far between, but their very existence is a caution of how wildlife can and does get pimped out. Utah expo and their “creative” accounting, 10% overhead in many instances, mission creep in WY, and Super Tag outfitter cottage industries are all examples.

Nevertheless, the strong majority of raffle tag revenue across the country goes back to the resource. The poll is about big game tag raffles as a whole. My guess is that is why “there is a place for them” got the most votes.

 

[Pucky Freak]

101 votes cast, 32 HT’ers are indifferent or have a negative opinion of big game raffle tags, and 69 have a positive or very positive view of them.

I appreciate the discussion - I learned some new things about these raffles, good and bad. Most significant to me is that when they take a sizable chunk out of the pool of draw tags, it can cause a lot of problems. Like most things, if it is designed well, it can also perform well - the devil is in the details.

I’ll concede that @BuzzH nudged my personal opinion from an overall net positive to closer to neutral. A small consolation prize compared to being solidly wrong about HT’s overall opinion on the raffles

 

[Baerman]

If the money is used for further conservation and does not allow an individual to have more than one tag per species per year, I'm all for it, no matter the State.

 

[Nameless Range]

I'm late to the convo, but I would love to see a chart, with a line representing every state. The X axis would be years, and the Y axis would be the amount of raffle tags each state offered at year N, and then move forward in time.

Would we see every single line ascend? That would be a bit of evidence in favor of my gut reaction, which is that raffle tags are a slope gone slippery. Would we ever see the lines descend? Sensibly they probably should at times, given the animals they are often raffling for are members of populations rarely increasing.

Ultimately, I get the sense that raffle tags/auctions/etc - they probably do do a fair bit of good for wildlife when the funds raised from their efforts are put to the right places (Buzz's examples of them supporting pet projects notwithstanding). In the end though, they are window dressing and a game political/financial connections play, and distract from not getting down to the root of the problem of the big challenges and unpopular changes needed to support the species they theoretically do sometimes.

 

[AFBeyers]

I believe raffles for tags are great to an extent as long as they limit the amount that are being raffled.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I'm late to the convo, but I would love to see a chart, with a line representing every state. The X axis would be years, and the Y axis would be the amount of raffle tags each state offered at year N, and then move forward in time.

Would we see every single line ascend? That would be a bit of evidence in favor of my gut reaction, which is that raffle tags are a slope gone slippery. Would we ever see the lines descend? Sensibly they probably should at times, given the animals they are often raffling for are members of populations rarely increasing.

Ultimately, I get the sense that raffle tags/auctions/etc - they probably do do a fair bit of good for wildlife when the funds raised from their efforts are put to the right places (Buzz's examples of them supporting pet projects notwithstanding). In the end though, they are window dressing and a game political/financial connections play, and distract from not getting down to the root of the problem of the big challenges and unpopular changes needed to support the species they theoretically do sometimes.

I dont disagree with you - but how do we measure the gain? In other words - it could be possible that things are worse off if these tags dont exist.

 

[Nameless Range]

I dont disagree with you - but how do we measure the gain? In other words - it could be possible that things are worse off if these tags dont exist.

That's a fair point. Counterfactuals are tough to assess, and take more time and effort than I've got.

Just high level. There's examples where the $ is providing a clear benefit to the Public Trust, and there are examples such as Buzz provided, where the animals are being taken from the landscape and the money isn't even going to their larger populations.

I don't think the latter should ever happen.

 

[Forkyfinder]

That's a fair point. Counterfactuals are tough to assess, and take more time and effort than I've got.

Just high level. There's examples where the $ is providing a clear benefit to the Public Trust, and there are examples such as Buzz provided, where the animals are being taken from the landscape and the money isn't even going to their larger populations.

I don't think the latter should ever happen.

Yeah - i guess thats where i struggle. Some of this brings tangible resources - especially to species that cant be funded with tag sales. The effectiveness of those funds is a different conversation, to me anyway.

The issue, to me, is when there is a disconnect from benefitting the resource. Such as cowboy joe club...

 

[EastTNHunter]

Aside from the music festival example, the rest of them seem pretty solid to me.

Do you have any idea what percent of those tags are sold by the nonprofit via auction vs raffle?

After a quick search, I discovered a 4H Commissioner tag that was sold via auction. That’s not what the poll is asking about- auction tags and raffles are not the same thing.

4H

Just saw this one. 4H does not allow raffles for fundraisers, but auctions are legal under their bylaws. I’d guess that they had to get some form of variance for that, but I have no direct knowledge of that

Neither stating support or disdain, just a little context for this specific post