Population Growth and Hunting in Rocky Mountain States

[mtnprst]

We've taken up the DDD movement from Matt Rinella - de-publicize, de-glorify and de-monetize western state hunting. Concerns about overcrowding and unneeded attention from anti and non-hunters are the concerns.

You're seeing backlash from us in Wyoming, but also in Idaho, CO, and other westerns states. The over-promotion of western state hunting by the "circle jerk" of those working to monetize page views, subscribers and podcast downloads is out of control.

Edited by Big Fin: Rob - I also edited this post to remove links to your website. I would ask that you quit posting links. When you signed up, you agreed to the Terms of Service that prohibit such. You have a PM from me.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

that's a funny comparison, definitely the beginning of the end in some aspects, especially for the native Crows in this area. Its interesting to read about the plethora of wildlife that they (both L&C and my Crow ancestors) saw everywhere in the area that I live in and to compare it to what wildlife currently exists today. Extrapolation of that trend further into the future from now with the influx of people from today's influencers does not look real good for our wildlife

Well, if MT decides to end the war on game there are some great folks at CPW they could talk to about management.

I have to wonder what the allure of western mountain states would be without Youtube, instagram, etc. People have "sold" western big game hunting through these platforms to the rest of the country. Bigfin moved to MT and has probably made a good portion of his living off of selling hunting through TV shows, podcasts, a brand, etc. and consequently has done very well at disseminating the idea of MT and other western states. Then he starts a thread on a forum about "how are we going to deal with increasing population and hunting pressure?" Bozangeles, MT has become the Hollywood of MT for people to move to from out of state and to start posting selfies and starting podcasts and recruiting followers. These "followers" who are flocking here in the last 3-4 years and other self-proclaimed "hunting celebrities" in the "industry" are who I am distinguishing from native Montanans. If you came here thirty years ago, to me you're a Montanan. If your job moved you here in the 90's you're a Montanan. The beef I have is if you moved to Bozeman two years ago and post 80 posts a day on a social media platform about your yuppy products or how you're hot shit because you hiked 20 miles into the backcountry and shot an elk. Also have beef with the people who worship these "celebrities". You all are recruiting more people to western states and you are the cause of the problem that sparked the original question for this thread. How to solve the problem? Quit displaying you're entire life on social media. The commercialization of hunting is what will ruin hunting and limit opportunities. Again, just my opinion and my observations. Maybe I'm out in left field, but I know that the people who I have been hunting with for the past 25 years feel the same way

I don't think Bigfin has made that much from the industry and certainly not the forum, if anything I think it's a net loss that get's subsidized by his day job.

Even if he was making 6 figures on it, wouldn't you prefer Randy to someone else? Someone is going to do it, I'd rather have a guy that posts videos about wildlife advocacy and how to get involved in legislation over the "Wack'em and stack'em" personalities the dominate the industry.

Social media has had a profound aspect on our lives and all kinds of places and industries

The celebrity thing is hardly new... I mean Sundance was started in 78'. I have a friend from Aspen, her godfather was a close family friend and neighbor... Hunter S. Thompson.

SW Montana has a equally long history of celebrities.

The Rocky's are exploding, honestly I'm giving you a hard time but nothing you've typed isn't stuff I haven't complained about on other threads. People have families, populations grow. Even back when I graduated highschool your only options were basically

1. Service industry for tourists
2. Construction building big houses from transplants
3. Public sector jobs, which were tough to get
4. Pro- hunting/fishing/skiing/biking/etc
5. Leave

Upside is now there are more options for folks, downside is certainly the cost of living. I'm sure there are folks in the rust belt saying cry me a river.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Holy crap, spot on my friend.

Circle Jerk.

Creating and promoting a website about not promoting western hunting on a website about western hunting in order to monetize not promoting western hunting.

Bitch'n logo though.

 

[Big Fin]

And yes, even tho Randy is an advocate for many things, just like mtnprst's article points out: he's advocating to solve issues that he has helped to unintentionally create....for money and attention. Probably a great guy, but never been a fan of the self-absorbed, "look at me and like my page" mentality. And yes, I assure you he has made and makes pretty good cash for who he is and what he represents. The ads on this page are a tiny bit of steady flow of income that he has set in place for himself. "A net loss"???? Dude, I'm sorry but that's funny. He did not do his TV shows and build his brand out of the goodness of his heart and to help out other people. He did it because he loves to hunt like all of us and wanted to make money from his hobby.

You should probably stick to things you know. I didn't start this thread a while back to make it about my personal financial decisions, but a few of your posts keep mentioning that, so I'll add a few bits to hopefully put that to rest and allow the discussion to continue down the original path of population growth of western states and the impacts that has on hunting.

Not that I care to share all the gory details, but to this point I'm over a half-million dollars into this venture and have yet to get a wage or a profit distribution from the LLC. That has been my choice and I don't expect any worry from others for my decisions of how I do it and why I do it.

If you think I do this for money or attention, I guess that is your prerogative to make that assumption of someone you've never met. It would be very uninformed or intentionally misinformed.

If I am making "pretty good cash," let Mrs. Fin know where it is. She proclaims this to be "the best job he ever bought." If I make money at it, great. That is not what drives me. What drives me is far deeper than any money or financial incentives.

I've been blessed in my other businesses and investments. When we started this in 2008, I promised Mrs. Fin this would not be our livelihood. Never has been and doesn't need to be our livelihood. So, I do it so long as I feel we are making progress towards our WHY.

If I feel we are not making progress, I could easily close the doors, have more time for my own things, hunt even more, and have more cash for things I like to do. But, this is a choice I've made and I think we are making progress towards the WHY of "Promote self-guided public land hunting and create advocates for that cause."

If ever I do make money at it, I'll apologize to nobody. Right now I'm into it for a large sum, not counting 13 years of working for free. I keep at it so long as it's worthwhile and my health allows; profit to me, or no profit to me.

I give that background to tell you that your post is ignorant of my situation and what drives me. Money has zero drive for me. Might sound strange, but I've been through enough life events that I put a lot higher priority on time, health to do the things I love, and the things I am passionate about, far great than I do money.

What greater blessing in life than to be in a financial position to spend your waking hours doing something you are passionate about and not have to do it with a focus on profits? To me, there is no greater blessing and I recognize how fortunate I am to be in that position.

If you want to use this forum, one that I subsidize, to promote your misguided and uninformed comments about me and my motives, knock yourself out. So long as you stay away from politics and you can interact with tact, your comments are welcome perspectives.

Carry on ......

 

[SAJ-99]

dude read the article. Its exactly what is going on and puts mine and many other Montanan's feelings into words. Like is says: main target audience is the eastern and midwestern deer hunter and nonhunter....might I also add Californian. This thread is the first thing I've posted on on this forum because it's something that I'm very concerned/passionate about. I normally don't give a crap about these threads that go back and forth like we are, but 95% of people in my state are not on a forum and so you will never hear from them about their distain for people (virtually all out-of-state transplants) who have transformed western hunting into something that it never used to be, and by so doing are leading to decrease opportunities.

I appreciate your posts, other than the extremely presumptuous view to say you speak for 95% of the state population. That said, I wouldn't be disappointed is zero people moved into the state next year, so I guess there is some nuance we can agree on. I don't think any city council member would be happy with zero growth. I can say that there are quite a few native Montana's who treat the nature resources we have like garbage. For me, it's not so much where you are from as much as what kind of person you are. Population growth has changed hunting everywhere. It happens everywhere. Also, the good times in the past always seem better. That is why we keep going back. If we remembered vividly all the past days we hunted and didn't see anything we wouldn't keep doing it. Hunting has probably gotten harder though, on average. Still enjoyable though.

 

[MTGomer]

According to FWP, the 2021 Montana Deer and Elk Draw brought an increase of 12.48% for Residents and an increase of 29.52% for non residents.

Thankfully NR is capped but I think its a safe assumption that many, but not all, of the additional 12.48% of residents to enter the special draw will also be 1st time holders of general licenses.

Acres of land for them to hunt on, unfortunately did not increase by the same percentage.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

dude read the article. Its exactly what is going on and puts mine and many other Montanan's feelings into words. Like is says: main target audience is the eastern and midwestern deer hunter and nonhunter....might I also add Californian. This thread is the first thing I've posted on on this forum because it's something that I'm very concerned/passionate about. I normally don't give a crap about these threads that go back and forth like we are, but 95% of people in my state are not on a forum and so you will never hear from them about their distain for people (virtually all out-of-state transplants) who have transformed western hunting into something that it never used to be, and by so doing are leading to decrease opportunities.

I did read the article in it's entirety, I also read the article on the hunting apocalypse he posted on other threads.

I've heard the same feelings you expressed from a rancher in Plevna. He was pretty pissed about my region 6 plates and said he wished they limited tags to only folks from around there.

Folks in Kotzebue, AK are trying to ban other Alaskan's from coming there to hunt, have been for years.

Western slope Coloradoan's would love if there were more landowner tags and less NR allocation.

This isn't even a R v. NR, people are totally willing to stick it to fellow residents. It's greed plain and simple.

I'm not trying to say it's not frustrating, it's extremely frustrating, I also share your grievances.

But what is the solution? We going to take the MT bumper sticker to heart and start hanging backcountry bloggers? Start some banjo playing deliverance stuff to keep the yuppies out of the woods? Instagram trolling... that's the solution, really?

You won't take Montana/CO/WY/ID back to the 60s, the only thing we can do is educate transplants and newcomers to the sport, about conservation, and improving access. These acts won't fix the problem but maybe they can level it out.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Yes, all assumptions about your motives. My apologies. But you must realize that you have been a key player in turning hunting into "an industry". So whether your business cuts you a check each quarter or not, your business has helped influence the creation of many others that do it for money. TV shows. Youtube. Instagram. A Brand. Podcasts. Give-aways if you like and subscribe. Promo Codes. T-shirts. Sponsors. "Hit my like button". On and on. How far does the "industry" go? More and more people are not only moving to Western states to be resident hunters, but many are also becoming apart of "the industry". Again, all of that is leading towards less opportunity, more pressure on the wildlife, and a worse view of hunting towards nonhunters. So in the WHY of your business, which is a very good and worthwhile pursuit, there have been collateral influences that have helped to create issues that you are now "advocating" to solve. And anyone who tries to say that hunting has always been an industry? ha!

A lot to unpack there and there have been some great discussions about a lot of these issues on various threads.

Hope you stick around and provide your opinion, experience, but also listen a bit to others.

 

[DouglasR]

Yes, all assumptions about your motives. My apologies. But you must realize that you have been a key player in turning hunting into "an industry". So whether your business cuts you a check each quarter or not, your business has helped influence the creation of many others that do it for money. TV shows. Youtube. Instagram. A Brand. Podcasts. Give-aways if you like and subscribe. Promo Codes. T-shirts. Sponsors. "Hit my like button". On and on. How far does the "industry" go? More and more people are not only moving to Western states to be resident hunters, but many are also becoming apart of "the industry". Again, all of that is leading towards less opportunity, more pressure on the wildlife, and a worse view of hunting towards nonhunters. So in the WHY of your business, which is a very good and worthwhile pursuit, there have been collateral influences that have helped to create issues that you are now "advocating" to solve. And anyone who tries to say that hunting has always been an industry? ha!

This is just my opinion, but I don’t agree with the idea that the hunters of social media are bringing the heat from the anti hunt crowd.
Do some of them?
sure.
But the anti hunters are already here and given what just happened with the wolves in Colorado I’d much rather wait my turn and share the woods with the bronies and woke-hunters than have hunting completely taken away by the woke Boulder ultra runner-anti hunters.
hence creating more advocates.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Outdoor recreation, both consumptive and non consumptive is growing throughout the country. The impact is felt in all these awesome places, and the Rocky Mountain West is indeed awesome. More people with more money and all the gear that makes harsh conditions tolerable will continue to enjoy these activities. The advent of the work from home option is not going away. Those temporary visitors are now seeing the opportunity to make their recreation lifestyle a permanent one. I personally don't see much of a slow down anytime soon. I would have left years ago if I could have changed states and kept my job. My hope is that the vast public lands stay that way and work is done to allow for more access to current land locked parcels.

 

[MTGomer]

This thread may give me an opportunity to unload something that’s been in my drawer for a while now.

If anybody wants to express their displeasure with the changes, The first 4 people that want one of these, let me know and DM me your address.

Must agree to display it on your vehicle, raft, horse trailer, cooler, etc

 

[The Hedgehog]

Hope i got in quick enough for the sticker for my ATV. I still love Bozeman and can think of NOWHERE else I'd prefer to be living right now, regardless of the influx of next level podcasters.

@BlazerBeam : Honest question.. You or anybody in your immediate family in the MT outfitting industry?

 

[idelkslayer]

As resident populations grow a couple things could happen.

1. Demand for big game tags will go up.

When this happens, opportunity will become more and more limited. Eventually, you get one big game tag per year, then some years you don't get one. How will hunter recruitment be affected when opportunity is that limited? Bottom line, there is a limit to how many hunters we can have. It is limited by the game resource and the land access.

2. Ballot box banning.

This possibility is that a growing population means a growing number of people who do not approve of hunting and vote to abolish it, little by little. Starting with bans on trapping on public land, then bans on predator hunting, then bans on trapping on private land, then bans on (fill in the blank) until there is nothing left.

I see this as being the end result. More hunters without increased access or game numbers will lead to decreased participation. Decreased participation means low political resistance to a majority population of non-hunters who vote away hunting one piece at a time.

On the social, voting side of things, we need as many advocates as we can get. But how many advocates can we create before the experience is so restricted and so limited that fewer and fewer people choose to go through the pains of participation? Is a positive portrayal of hunting enough to sway non-hunting voters in favor of those of us who do hunt?

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

The solution for population growth problem starts with the states they are coming from. If it wasn't such tax nightmare and extreme progressive nightmare to live in places like California people would stop leaving. I have dozens of new customers that came from cali and Washington every year and those are easily the top 2 reasons they give me for why they relocated to idaho. Those states might not have the hunting opportunities that idaho offers but they both have as much or more outdoor recreational opportunities. Coastal elites fix their shitholes and the influx will flatten out.

 

[mdhunter]

There is a lot to digest on this thread. The “locals” bitching about change just makes me laugh. It’s not going back to what it was...nothing ever does. I hope some of you can learn to accept the change and find happiness while it occurs. The west is beautiful but it certainly isn’t yours alone. Hopefully the changes can be in a manner that you personally or professionally can profit from and provide new financial opportunities to your families. I hope the growth is controlled and done in the least damaging environmental way.

 

[BucksnDucks]

As resident populations grow a couple things could happen.

1. Demand for big game tags will go up.

When this happens, opportunity will become more and more limited. Eventually, you get one big game tag per year, then some years you don't get one. How will hunter recruitment be affected when opportunity is that limited? Bottom line, there is a limit to how many hunters we can have. It is limited by the game resource and the land access.

2. Ballot box banning.

This possibility is that a growing population means a growing number of people who do not approve of hunting and vote to abolish it, little by little. Starting with bans on trapping on public land, then bans on predator hunting, then bans on trapping on private land, then bans on (fill in the blank) until there is nothing left.

I see this as being the end result. More hunters without increased access or game numbers will lead to decreased participation. Decreased participation means low political resistance to a majority population of non-hunters who vote away hunting one piece at a time.

On the social, voting side of things, we need as many advocates as we can get. But how many advocates can we create before the experience is so restricted and so limited that fewer and fewer people choose to go through the pains of participation? Is a positive portrayal of hunting enough to sway non-hunting voters in favor of those of us who do hunt?

Regarding #2 it would be beneficial to see how it happened here in CA. They are "eating the elephant one bite at a time". It starts with the pretty ones, the charismatic mega fauna lions, bears, bobcats were all on the ballot here. A few cute photos and the ignorant public casts their vote. I hope other states see this tactic and non trappers non predator hunters don't stay silent because they feel it doesn't directly affect their pursuits. The anti's are slowing. methodically chipping away at the edges.

 

[MTGomer]

In case anybody is in need of learning a woke word, look up “gate keeping”

3 stickers left

 

[Pucky Freak]

I have to wonder what the allure of western mountain states would be without Youtube, instagram, etc. People have "sold" western big game hunting through these platforms to the rest of the country. Bigfin moved to MT and has probably made a good portion of his living off of selling hunting through TV shows, podcasts, a brand, etc. and consequently has done very well at disseminating the idea of MT and other western states. Then he starts a thread on a forum about "how are we going to deal with increasing population and hunting pressure?" Bozangeles, MT has become the Hollywood of MT for people to move to from out of state and to start posting selfies and starting podcasts and recruiting followers. These "followers" who are flocking here in the last 3-4 years and other self-proclaimed "hunting celebrities" in the "industry" are who I am distinguishing from native Montanans. If you came here thirty years ago, to me you're a Montanan. If your job moved you here in the 90's you're a Montanan. The beef I have is if you moved to Bozeman two years ago and post 80 posts a day on a social media platform about your yuppy products or how you're hot shit because you hiked 20 miles into the backcountry and shot an elk. Also have beef with the people who worship these "celebrities". You all are recruiting more people to western states and you are the cause of the problem that sparked the original question for this thread. How to solve the problem? Quit displaying you're entire life on social media. The commercialization of hunting is what will ruin hunting and limit opportunities. Again, just my opinion and my observations. Maybe I'm out in left field, but I know that the people who I have been hunting with for the past 25 years feel the same way

I see you missed the opportunity to learn a new vocab word when someone else mentioned it.

Myopic: lacking in foresight or discernment : narrow in perspective and without concern for broader implications.

If only things were so simple as to tell people to stay away from your turf, and they did. If you want a solution to you’re gripe, you’re going to need to be more creative.

The city I grew up in was middle class but now homes now go for 600k. I can’t live there anymore, because I cannot afford it. So I had to go move somewhere else. So what? Such is life. I found somewhere else and I love it. Good luck wishing that Billings will change to accommodate you. Maybe you’ll benefit from relocating like so many of us chose to do or have to do.

 

[mtmuley]

You won't take Montana/CO/WY/ID back to the 60s, the only thing we can do is educate transplants and newcomers to the sport, about conservation, and improving access. These acts won't fix the problem but maybe they can level it out.

And then spend pages and pages about the "lack of resource". mtmuley

 

[Hunting Wife]

My man, thank you for the vocab help.
The dental practices that I own are loving the surge in people coming here. But I am not, for reasons far deeper than you can understand, because you are not me. I am entitled to “gripe” just as you are entitled to be offended that I don’t want you here. But the direction of my recent comments were trying to point out a problem that relates more to the insane commercialization of hunting which has caught the attention of folks like yourself and will not slow down because of folks like yourself. This will lead to decreased opportunity for me as a life long resident of Montana. I have never hunted another state because I am rarely able to take a week or multiple weeks off of work. I have relied upon being able to freely buy an over the counter elk tag every year and being able to hunt close to home on the weekends. So for guys like me, hunting opportunity as a resident is a very big concern to me.

I see a lot of “me”, “my” and “I” in your posts. Generally sums up the most discontented folks.

It seems pretty off target to blame hunting for all the people moving to any western state. Some, yes. But many more people moving here do not hunt at all and just want their 30 acres next to open space. Randy, or any other hunting media, have very little to do with the overall mass desire for proximity to space and recreation, especially after Covid. Has been happening in a lot of states for a long time now, long before Randy or before western hunting was “a thing”.

The wheels of progress keep turning. That is usually a painful process. Nothing you, me, Randy, hunting media can do about it. People either find ways to adapt and enjoy their lives, or don’t and live a miserable one. In the end, that choice is completely up to you.