Points Schemes

[antelopedundee]

I think I see what you are getting at but I think equating applying for game tags to gambling in a casinois a false equivalency. With one you are hoping to get the chance to purchase something with the other you are wagering X amount hoping to win X*Y amount.

Also with game tags some are available over the counter or available to those willing to pay the price. There are no guaranteed wins in gambling at a casino. Even to those with enough money to cover every number on the roulette wheel it is still a losing proposition with a baked in house advantage.

Applying to hopefully pay for something does not seem the same as wagering some amount to win a greater amount.

Of course if you don't win the larger [or any] amount the house doesn't refund your bet. It's a bit like a lottery except the lottery doesn't refund your ticket/s cost/s if you don't win.

 

[antelopedundee]

I would add the fact that WGFD allows one to get 2 buck antelope tags suggests that they don't see supply demand as a big problem yet.

 

[azelkhntr]

If there wasn’t a points system I guess it would just be by lottery. To make the lottery as fair as possible it would have to be a ‘win one and done.’ A once in a lifetime chance. You’re ineligible to ever apply for that species again in that State.

 

[Hammsolo]

I’d vote for a simple streamlined system. Reward the diligent. All this point buying bullshit complicated things.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I would add the fact that WGFD allows one to get 2 buck antelope tags suggests that they don't see supply demand as a big problem yet.

This may start becoming a thing of the past. It is getting more difficult each year to pull a second tag.

 

[TOGIE]

I’d vote for a simple streamlined system. Reward the diligent. All this point buying bullshit complicated things.

reward the diligent, but no points?

all random lottery, but maybe just make application fees much larger and application fees diminish with time for repeat customers? license fees diminish with time for repeat customers? to a set floor though, can't go to zero. hmmm

of course, you draw a tag, you're back to the high fees for next year

all seem to complicate things

 

[FranklinME]

The next generation is screwed no doubt about it. I'm almost glad my daughter just likes fishing and turkey hunting.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

The next generation is screwed no doubt about it. I'm almost glad my daughter just likes fishing and turkey hunting.

The only way the next generation is screwed is if their parents do it to them. I have three kids who are getting quite a few opportunities to hunt in our home state. They have points in other states, but we keep getting enough tags here that we don't have time to go out of state. I have chosen not to teach my kids that the glory tags are necessary if you want to have a good hunt.

QQ

 

[LopeHunter]

Sorry if this has been said, but it’s simple. 50% random, 50% points.


If it was me I’d do away with them even though I’m 0/7 on New Mexico elk and 0/7 on Idaho elk. But there is still a chance I could draw a bighorn sheep tag (not in Idaho if I apply for elk). So wait until I’m 70 to draw a sheep tag or have the chance to draw one now when I’m in my 30’s. The answer is obvious.

Curious, your first choice in NM for elk, how many tags and how many applicants? Same for ID? I ask because they are high demand tags where being 0/7 is not being unlucky but rather the expected outcome for over 90% of the applicants over a 7 year span. If you are trying to draw a tag that awards 20 per year and 1400 apply then a point system would only mean you have an expected wait of 35 years of applying just to have 50/50 cumulative odds to draw that tag. Is a heck of a lot easier to sell hope with a point system but just like waking up on Saturday morning after a bender down at Jug's bar and grill then pulling the sheets aside you discover the "10" that came home with you at closing time is at best a 3. So it is with point systems, especially those that are preference but any point system merely creates a temporary "max pool royalty class" that anyone getting in line the next year has to outlive. I will take my chances at a bar in NM over one in CO. Cheers!

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I’d vote for a simple streamlined system. Reward the diligent. All this point buying bullshit complicated things.

Simple system. Just give me any tag I want and let the others fight over the left overs. /s

Point buying is a source of income for states and if you were to replace that then the money would have to come from somewhere.

In Utah for example.

LE Deer - 20,000 point buyers = $200k

LE Elk - 33,000 point buyers = $330k

LE Pronghorn - 10,000 point buyers $100k

OIL Bison - 10,000 point buyers $100k

OIL Moose 19,000 point buyers $190k

OIL Desert Big Horn 10,000 point buyers $100k

OIL Rocky Big Horn 9,000 point buyers $90k

OIL Mountain Goat 9,000 point buyers $90k

1.2 Million dollars generated by people not hunting this year.

Now it is Utah and most of this money probably goes the Rob Bishop's Lard Sandwiches Foundation, but still that is a sizable chunk of change.

The question is how you would recoup that 1.2 million dollars.

Increase the application fees? - Seems like the logical choice, but any raises in fees is met with resistance. There is also no guarantee that you will get the same amount of applying that you had previously. Because some people believe that points are magic. One of the reasons why Idaho does not get as many applications as Utah.

Increase the tag fees? - Seems like this will price out a bunch of non residents trying to get into hunting out west. The forum guys probably could afford it, but a lot of people can not.

Tag Fees up front? I would say require tag fees up front to pick up interest, but I believe I read somewhere that it actually loses money with the cost of refunding everyone.

 

[azelkhntr]

Just a heads up, Sunday is the last day to purchase raffle tickets for the AZ big game super raffle.

 

[antelopedundee]

I’d vote for a simple streamlined system. Reward the diligent. All this point buying bullshit complicated things.

The point system is supposed to be a way to reward those who strike out year after year after year.

 

[Walkathon]

I think the WY Non Resident point system is fair for deer, elk and antelope (my only experience). A hybrid that basically gives everyone a chance, but gives a higher odds for PP holders with more points. I've burned my deer and elk and antelope points for the most part, and I'm starting over at the bottom. No big deal. Might not ever draw a top notch unit again, but don't care.

 

[cedahm]

If there wasn’t a points system I guess it would just be by lottery. To make the lottery as fair as possible it would have to be a ‘win one and done.’ A once in a lifetime chance. You’re ineligible to ever apply for that species again in that State.

I agree. Expanded Once-In-a-Lifetime categories should be part of a pure lottery. NM (pure lottery) does this pretty well with OIL both by species (Sheep, Exotics) and in the 2 'Valle' units for elk.

I'd go further and would prefer to see OIL applied to 'draw' not just 'harvest'. Have carveouts for females or special situations (e.g. the Unlimited sheep units in MT, the non-OIL hunts for some of the exotics in NM, etc).

 

[antelopedundee]

If there wasn’t a points system I guess it would just be by lottery. To make the lottery as fair as possible it would have to be a ‘win one and done.’ A once in a lifetime chance. You’re ineligible to ever apply for that species again in that State.

In Wyoming, a lot of the licenses are to repeat customers. No reason to limit to a once in a lifetime for deer or antelope. Of course a bighorn sheep tag is a one per lifetime for NR and I think a moose is 1 tag every 20 years.

I got this from my contact at WGFD about the leftover antelope draw for area 29.



"We were a little surprised amongst our team to see the increase in numbers of applicants, we expected them to be down, and licenses to be a little easier to draw. Numbers on antelope are down statewide, and that license had the quota cut by 100 from a year ago. That made for fewer leftovers to draw."

 

[ClearCreek]

In Wyoming, a lot of the licenses are to repeat customers. No reason to limit to a once in a lifetime for deer or antelope. Of course a bighorn sheep tag is a one per lifetime for NR and I think a moose is 1 tag every 20 years.

I got this from my contact at WGFD about the leftover antelope draw for area 29.


"We were a little surprised amongst our team to see the increase in numbers of applicants, we expected them to be down, and licenses to be a little easier to draw. Numbers on antelope are down statewide, and that license had the quota cut by 100 from a year ago. That made for fewer leftovers to draw."

Your info is not accurate.

There is a five year waiting period for moose and bighorn sheep licenses. (A person can only have one of these licences in a five year period.)

Mountain goat and some wild bison licenses are are once in a lifetime.

Regarding antelope. The number of antelope may be down statewide, that is, the total number of antelope in Wyoming may be less now than a few years ago. However, within individual antelope hunt areas the populations may be up, down unchanged.

The demand for antelope licenses has increased greatly over the last 5-10 years.

ClearCreek

 

[Pucky Freak]

I think one of the reasons PP are such a money maker is that they’re cheap insofar as you pay a token amount a little at a time, people perceive them as affordable, so they buy them year after year, not feeling the pain of a thousand dollars spent at one time.

For states rolling in the dough from points, would this work as an alternative?

Half of tags go to PP holders and half are pure lottery. $100 a year gets you in the door to play the game (e.g. qualifying license), and you can either buy a PP or a lottery ticket for each species for the same cost (e.g. $20 antelope, $25 deer, $35 elk, $65 goat, etc). Any tag with avg <5PP to draw over the last 3 years is PP only. CC gets charged if you draw.

I’m sure I overlooked some gaping hole in my scheme. What is it?

 

[Hammsolo]

The point system is supposed to be a way to reward those who strike out year after year after year.

Yeah, I do know that, but too many states have made it too complicated. Just gain a point each year you lose out, and have the only other way to improve your odds should be party hunts. Buying bonus points... not a fan. I can afford it, but not all can.

 

[Hammsolo]

Simple system. Just give me any tag I want and let the others fight over the left overs. /s

Point buying is a source of income for states and if you were to replace that then the money would have to come from somewhere.

In Utah for example.

LE Deer - 20,000 point buyers = $200k

LE Elk - 33,000 point buyers = $330k

LE Pronghorn - 10,000 point buyers $100k

OIL Bison - 10,000 point buyers $100k

OIL Moose 19,000 point buyers $190k

OIL Desert Big Horn 10,000 point buyers $100k

OIL Rocky Big Horn 9,000 point buyers $90k

OIL Mountain Goat 9,000 point buyers $90k

1.2 Million dollars generated by people not hunting this year.

Now it is Utah and most of this money probably goes the Rob Bishop's Lard Sandwiches Foundation, but still that is a sizable chunk of change.

The question is how you would recoup that 1.2 million dollars.

Increase the application fees? - Seems like the logical choice, but any raises in fees is met with resistance. There is also no guarantee that you will get the same amount of applying that you had previously. Because some people believe that points are magic. One of the reasons why Idaho does not get as many applications as Utah.

Increase the tag fees? - Seems like this will price out a bunch of non residents trying to get into hunting out west. The forum guys probably could afford it, but a lot of people can not.

Tag Fees up front? I would say require tag fees up front to pick up interest, but I believe I read somewhere that it actually loses money with the cost of refunding everyone.

That’s a chunk of change that hopefully goes toward conservation. Great data and points!

Complex bureaucracy is expensive. You have to pay people to run it, and for any resources (envelopes and stamps add up...). It reminds me of the IRS. A bloated archaic system that could be simplified in so many ways.

This is a system to really ponder. Focusing on making it accessible to all.

 

[Hammsolo]

reward the diligent, but no points?

all random lottery, but maybe just make application fees much larger and application fees diminish with time for repeat customers? license fees diminish with time for repeat customers? to a set floor though, can't go to zero. hmmm

of course, you draw a tag, you're back to the high fees for next year

all seem to complicate things

Great points. I was talking about specific bonus point buying. I like the idea of diminishing cost for repeated enterers. Motivates continual application, but shouldn’t raise operating costs.