Irrelevant
Well-known member
Definitely not a hunter organization.
Podcast Episodes on Public-Private Property Rights at Intersecting Corners
- Thread starter Big Fin
- Start date
bucdoego
Well-known member
Yes, agreed. A huge lobbyist though. Would they get involved (on the side of the public)? Has anyone ever engaged them with this issue? I don't know the answers. Maybe someone else does, hence my comment and questions.
The NRA bows to money, thus would not be helpful in an attempt to make public land more accessible to the plebs while limiting the wealthy landowners ability to profit off of what is not theirs..
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Until very recently it had never accrued to me that anyone might think stepping across a corner from public land to public land might be somehow considered trespassing on the adjacent property. I have personally done it on several occasions. Fortunately, around here most of the checkerboard land is owned by timber companies who allow people on their land or at the very least are not interested in keeping people off public land.
Listening to the podcast I, at first, thought the idea of the government acquiring the land next to the corners or encouraging the landowners to grant easement at those corners was a great Idea that would solve the problem. Then I thought about the logistics and expense of such a project. I know that if I were a young man just hired by the BLM in the lands department or cadastral surveying, I would love it because it would guaranty job security for my whole career.
I hate the term "common sense" because people usually use it when the facts of the matter don't match what they want to believe, but if there is any common sense then the idea of stepping from one spot on public land to another spot on public land being legal has to be it.
Listening to the podcast I, at first, thought the idea of the government acquiring the land next to the corners or encouraging the landowners to grant easement at those corners was a great Idea that would solve the problem. Then I thought about the logistics and expense of such a project. I know that if I were a young man just hired by the BLM in the lands department or cadastral surveying, I would love it because it would guaranty job security for my whole career.
I hate the term "common sense" because people usually use it when the facts of the matter don't match what they want to believe, but if there is any common sense then the idea of stepping from one spot on public land to another spot on public land being legal has to be it.
Cornell Cowboy
Well-known member
In thinking more about this, another subtle issue is that the discussion of corner crossing turns, in the minds of many it seems, based on the assumption that all checkerboard corners look like the one pictured in the Elk Mountain case (i.e. a pin with some prohibitive posts). I have not found this to be the case -- sure, I've found some pins, but it's more of a rarity that people seem to think. In fact, I have some property in the Laramie Peak area that I'm trying to get a boundary survey of because it borders NF and I'm getting survey quotes of $7000 (best one so far) just to mark the corners. The reason is that the surveyors I've talked with in the area don't think that there is a high likelihood of finding the section corners from the survey done in the 1880s, so they would have to be set first. So I suspect that even if corner crossing at a pin is green-lighted based on precedent in this case, it won't open up as much land as folks think because I think there will be a limited number of pins that will be actually be found and it is cost-prohibitive to put pins at all corners today. Those that are easily found may end up being overrun.
That is what I was thinking when I mentioned the logistics and expense of the government buying the land or getting easements. It would be expensive where the monuments are in place and prohibitively expensive where there is no monument in place.
My thoughts on this would be that if a person did all reasonable things to cross at the corners and did no damage there should be no crime.
If you go to a corner, using a GPS app and there is no corner pins, no fences, no signs, no posts and you cross at the corner using the best info you have available what more could you have done?
If the land owner is really worried someone might be a few feet off they can mark it.
There could even be a rule that you can't hunt, shoot, camp, have a fire, etc so many feet from corners to further protect private land owners.
Frenchy
Well-known member
Burden of proof that a person didn't cross at the corner would lie with the landowner I would guess.
Cornell Cowboy
Well-known member
I'm not sure that a "do the best you can" approach will work. What you're describing above is essentially a grant of easement for public use, just more ambiguously defined. Access isn't defined as the "best info you have with your phone app," not in Wyoming at least. Access must either be surveyed or defined along a property boundary, which requires that the boundary is actually known. Then you're back to the easement logistics problem -- I get that the problem is easier (from the hunter's perspective) if you just say that the landowners property rights don't matter.
Many want to pretend that they, in their capacity as a taxpayer, own the public land in the same way as a private landowner does. So let's run with that. In Wyoming, as a landlocked private landowner I am guaranteed the right to get access to my property (but not for free!) -- see W.S. 9-24-101 and 9-24-103. In reality, I have purchased two different properties that were landlocked and had to use State statutes to enforce my right of access to my properties. To get access to the property that I live on today, I had to secure easements through UW, the State of Wyoming, and a private ranch. For reference, the process took a year and a half. I ended up paying between $1.52 to $5.50/ft for my easement depending on who I was dealing with. My costs for surveying and setting the necessary monuments was about $7500. My attorney fees were probably about that as well. So my cost to get access to my property as a private landowner was about $15,000 + the cost of the easement+1.5 years of my life having my life savings tied up in a property that I had no legal access to. My point is that this is similar to what I think would be the cost of getting the corner easements that you seem to be describing -- the legal fees and necessary surveying would dwarf the cost of the easement. And, as I have experienced, big landowners can drag their feet for a long time running up legal fees for you. If you want to go to court to enforce the easement, the cost would be much higher (thus my accepting of higher than typical easement rates to avoid court costs).
It just seems odd to me that so many want to demand their right to access "their" public land, but they don't really want to do what the law would normally provide for in terms of securing access to a landlocked piece of property. They just want a magic wand waived to "give" them the access they "deserve."
wyoelkfan15
Well-known member
If the property is bordered by USFS then there is a full time Cadastral LS on staff at the region office that can mark this for you, free of charge. It is literally part of that office's job. If you need contact info, please feel free to send me a PM.
First, if the "best you can approach" of using an app isn't good enough for the private land owner, they are welcome to survey and mark their property lines. Is it really any different than any other boundary? I use mapping apps, marked property lines and landmarks.
Second, how is a person stepping over a corner violating anyone's rights other than their desire to keep the public out of public land? If the land owners really want to block public access to public land then I think the landowners should be also barred from using that land and certainly not allowed to profit off of it.
In your situation, you acquired land you were unable to access? How did you visit the land prior to purchase? Did you know of the access difficulties before buying?
I'm not opposed to the government paying reasonable and market rates for easements, but if the "easement" is for hovering over a one foot area in a corner how much is that really worth? Nobody gets compensated for losing the public land they were treating as private.
I'm sure the money could be raised.
Cornell Cowboy
Well-known member
Sounds like you've got it all covered. No need for attorneys, statutes, or anything else. If only I had known how easy it was...
lifeisgoodsteve
Well-known member
Podcasts have some of the most optimistic news I've heard regarding hunting laws.
@Big Fin , do you see any specific actions to follow up on in Montana?
The lawyers mentioned how the legislature could easily pass a law to establish clearly that corner crossing is illegal, though they also said how it would seem a bitter political pill to swallow to so obviously support the "billionaire" landowners over the resident normal folks.
That said, did they say how feasible they felt it would be to do the opposite, for the legislature to pass a law saying essentially that corner crossing is NOT trespassing and legal to do?
I tried to listen for it and sorry if I missed them addressing that option vs. a lawsuit situation like WY. Thanks for all the time and money invested in what could lead to genuine action and change.
s
@Big Fin , do you see any specific actions to follow up on in Montana?
The lawyers mentioned how the legislature could easily pass a law to establish clearly that corner crossing is illegal, though they also said how it would seem a bitter political pill to swallow to so obviously support the "billionaire" landowners over the resident normal folks.
That said, did they say how feasible they felt it would be to do the opposite, for the legislature to pass a law saying essentially that corner crossing is NOT trespassing and legal to do?
I tried to listen for it and sorry if I missed them addressing that option vs. a lawsuit situation like WY. Thanks for all the time and money invested in what could lead to genuine action and change.
s
GlockZ
Well-known member
I found both episodes to be an interesting listen. Thank you for doing it.
I'm really enjoying the podcasts as well. Thanks for doing this. I have to wonder out loud...what if the shoe was on the other foot here? Let's say the BLM decided they needed to close public access to the public portion of the checkerboard and now the private landowner couldn't access their own checkerboard private land due to the same issues? You think they'd be singing a different tune?....
Pedropistola
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2020
- Messages
- 84
It would be nice to have a GPS mapping system available to the public that is accurate enough for legal standards. Maybe that requires a different device than a cell phone, but seems much more feasible than physically marking all corners in this modern age of technology. Might help the private landowners from innocently and incorrectly marking their corners/property lines as well. This would make it clear and accessible for everybody, and would give little room for interpretation.
It doesn't solve the issue of how much a foot hovering over your land for a few seconds is worth though.
It shouldn't take thousands of dollars and years of your life to step from one corner of your land to another, but here we are...
My thing is that if you are making a reasonable and diligent effort to stay on public land and you arent damaging anything if a land owner is concerned about people being a bit off they can mark the corner.
bucdoego
Well-known member
I like the Fly-In solution as a stop-gap way to access a particular section of public that is "land-locked" by private sections surrounding it. At $700 it isn't cheap, but it also isn't grossly prohibitive either. If I heard it correctly in the podcast, Randy has done this more than just a few times, but it appears that he shared at least one such hunt via his YT catalog. Would it work in Wyoming, Idaho, etc.? Has anyone else done this, too?
Hunting Montana Elk with Randy Newberg - Public Land Fly-in (OYOA S3 E4)
88,126 views | Mar 13, 2017
Hunting with Randy Newberg takes you to central Montana for an elk hunting on a landlocked piece of BLM land, only accessible by air. Randy is joined by repeat guest, Bart May, as they chase big herds of elk around this small piece of public land.
Even with the effort required to get here, Randy and Bart encounter other hunters, but such is the life of hunting public land. On the last day, even with terrible weather, a nice bull, broken and battle-worn, gives Randy the chance he has been working so hard to created.
Hunting Montana Elk with Randy Newberg - Public Land Fly-in (OYOA S3 E4)
88,126 views | Mar 13, 2017
Hunting with Randy Newberg takes you to central Montana for an elk hunting on a landlocked piece of BLM land, only accessible by air. Randy is joined by repeat guest, Bart May, as they chase big herds of elk around this small piece of public land.
Even with the effort required to get here, Randy and Bart encounter other hunters, but such is the life of hunting public land. On the last day, even with terrible weather, a nice bull, broken and battle-worn, gives Randy the chance he has been working so hard to created.
SFC B
Well-known member
For those interested, here is the already IN PLACE regulation referenced by the attorneys in the podcast that only needs to be acted upon to solve a huge amount of these issues. See page 13
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