Permit allocation Res/NR

[Pagosa]

Big Fin, thanks for the real numbers.

I'd rather have 18.4% than 35% and unlimited otc elk tags.. Its not fair to the sportsmen of Colorado.

 

[BuzzH]

What isnt fair to the sportsmen of Colorado is the number of transfereable landowner tags they hand out.

I could deal with sharing any percentage of tags/resource with a fellow NR sportsman from Alabama, Texas, etc. much easier than watching CDOW hand over the landowner tags to the tag-pimps, RFW, outfitters, etc.

Just sayin'...

 

[Big Fin]

Big Fin, thanks for the real numbers.

I'd rather have 18.4% than 35% and unlimited otc elk tags.. Its not fair to the sportsmen of Colorado.

Not going to disagree. I understand what you are saying. Yet, so long as CO allows for OTC elk tags, this NR will be down there enjoying that opportunity, even if they raise the price. It is just that much fun.

 

[jlmatthew]

Colorado doesnt have a monopoly on being over-generous to non-residents with their tags. You'll have your eyes opened when you become a Montana Resident and take to the field. Montana is not an easy state to be a Resident hunter either...and I dont have to guess about that.

But cant a MT resident just go and buy a OTC deer & elk tag good for a good chunk of the State? How long is the season in Montana? I watched a certain outdoor show this fall where the host mentioned how very thankful he was because he lived in Montana, and why. And this guy hunts several western states each year

Using the figures you posted, it still appears Colorado hands out more NR tags for deer & elk than MT & WY combined.

If you think Montana isn't a easy state to be a resident hunter in, you'd really hate being a Colorado resident. I never hear Montana residents wanting to adopt Colorado's season structure or tag allocations, but you sure hear a lot of Coloradoans that want Montana's

 

[Big Fin]

But cant a MT resident just go and buy a OTC deer & elk tag good for a good chunk of the State? How long is the season in Montana? I watched a certain outdoor show this fall where the host mentioned how very thankful he was because he lived in Montana, and why. And this guy hunts several western states each year

Using the figures you posted, it still appears Colorado hands out more NR tags for deer & elk than MT & WY combined.

If you think Montana isn't a easy state to be a resident hunter in, you'd really hate being a Colorado resident. I never hear Montana residents wanting to adopt Colorado's season structure or tag allocations, but you sure hear a lot of Coloradoans that want Montana's

True. I would kick and scream before I would accept the model Colorado has in my home state. But, given the hunter numbers in CO, you would need some serious restrictions on NR tag numbers AND travel restrictions to allow for your deer and elk to live past age 2.5 years.

Not sure how your agency would survive without the NR tags they sell. Would residents be willing to kick in the price increase that would be required if NRs were cut down to 10% and the OTC elk tags were limited to 10%?

I see more ATVs in one week of hunting in CO than I see in eleven weeks of hunting in MT. That has a serious impact on buck/bull mortality. Given the people I see using them, I think CO has little hope of reigning in motorized travel during hunting season. As such, the long season opportunities you see in MT are probably not a realistic expectation for CO.

No doubt CO and WY are super generous to NRs. Any NR who complains about the tag allocations in those two states needs a reality check. And, so long as they continue that generosity, I am willing to let them have a large portion of my hunting budget in the form of NR tags fees.

Reading all of these comments makes me think about why I hunt as much as I do and why I am comfortable spending a lot of my savings to do so, without much concern for why states discriminate against me as a NR or the degree to which they do, either in terms of prices or tag allocations.

I am almost 50. I might have 15 years of elk hunting left. If it means I have to eat beans and rice for the final years of my post-elk hunting life, then I will gladly do it, knowing I spent my money on things that were worthwhile when I was healthy enough to enjoy them. I am blessed with a wife who understands my perspective and shares my belief that these are the "Golden Years," not when we are too old and cobbled up to do things we enjoy. We won't have a fancy retirement and I couldn't care less. We are doing what our bodies and health will let us do now. We will make due with less, later.

There is so much opportunity to hunt in the US, without breaking the bank, it amazes me how few people take advantage of it. I think too often we focus on the lack of a pipe dream world where there are OTC NR elk tags, for $10, with 400" bulls sacrificing themselves to our bullets/arrows, when if we looked around and took inventory of all we are blessed with, we would realize that hunters in the US are some of the luckiest SOBs in the world to have the hunting we have, at the prices we pay, whether as Rs and NRs.

Some day when I am too old/unhealthy to elk hunt and I go out to my shop, I will look at the many euro mounts I have out there and be thankful I spent the money I did to hunt as many places as I could, rather than have some big wad of cash in a savings account and be a miserable old coot because I never hunted when my health allowed.

With that perspective, this entire discussion about tag allocations, costs to NRs, etc. is not going to stop me from taking advantage of whatever opportunity states will allow me, TV show or no TV show. States have rights that allow them to treat NRs differently; part of the way this country was formed and the Constitution that governs us. That is not going to change. I deal with it and hunt where tags and time allow. There are only two things in life that will slow down my hunting - health or Mrs. Fin.

I was born penniless and destined to be a hunter. If I die penniless and hunted more than some believe was reasonable, then it was time and money well spent. I grew up in a family where no one had ever traveled to hunt in a different county, let alone a different state. Even before the TV show, my hunting opportunities so far exceeded anything I could have dreamed of as a kid that I would be embarrassed and guilt-ridden to complain for more opportunity than what avails us in the hunting world today.

Now, to figure out my WY app for this year.

 

[1_pointer]

True. I would kick and scream before I would accept the model Colorado has in my home state. But, given the hunter numbers in CO, you would need some serious restrictions on NR tag numbers AND travel restrictions to allow for your deer and elk to live past age 2.5 years.

Not sure how your agency would survive without the NR tags they sell. Would residents be willing to kick in the price increase that would be required if NRs were cut down to 10% and the OTC elk tags were limited to 10%?

I see more ATVs in one week of hunting in CO than I see in eleven weeks of hunting in MT. That has a serious impact on buck/bull mortality. Given the people I see using them, I think CO has little hope of reigning in motorized travel during hunting season. As such, the long season opportunities you see in MT are probably not a realistic expectation for CO.

No doubt CO and WY are super generous to NRs. Any NR who complains about the tag allocations in those two states needs a reality check. And, so long as they continue that generosity, I am willing to let them have a large portion of my hunting budget in the form of NR tags fees.

Reading all of these comments makes me think about why I hunt as much as I do and why I am comfortable spending a lot of my savings to do so, without much concern for why states discriminate against me as a NR or the degree to which they do, either in terms of prices or tag allocations.

I am almost 50. I might have 15 years of elk hunting left. If it means I have to eat beans and rice for the final years of my post-elk hunting life, then I will gladly do it, knowing I spent my money on things that were worthwhile when I was healthy enough to enjoy them. I am blessed with a wife who understands my perspective and shares my belief that these are the "Golden Years," not when we are too old and cobbled up to do things we enjoy. We won't have a fancy retirement and I couldn't care less. We are doing what our bodies and health will let us do now. We will make due with less, later.

There is so much opportunity to hunt in the US, without breaking the bank, it amazes me how few people take advantage of it. I think too often we focus on the lack of a pipe dream world where there are OTC NR elk tags, for $10, with 400" bulls sacrificing themselves to our bullets/arrows, when if we looked around and took inventory of all we are blessed with, we would realize that hunters in the US are some of the luckiest SOBs in the world to have the hunting we have, at the prices we pay, whether as Rs and NRs.

Some day when I am too old/unhealthy to elk hunt and I go out to my shop, I will look at the many euro mounts I have out there and be thankful I spent the money I did to hunt as many places as I could, rather than have some big wad of cash in a savings account and be a miserable old coot because I never hunted when my health allowed.

With that perspective, this entire discussion about tag allocations, costs to NRs, etc. is not going to stop me from taking advantage of whatever opportunity states will allow me, TV show or no TV show. States have rights that allow them to treat NRs differently; part of the way this country was formed and the Constitution that governs us. That is not going to change. I deal with it and hunt where tags and time allow. There are only two things in life that will slow down my hunting - health or Mrs. Fin.

I was born penniless and destined to be a hunter. If I die penniless and hunted more than some believe was reasonable, then it was time and money well spent. I grew up in a family where no one had ever traveled to hunt in a different county, let alone a different state. Even before the TV show, my hunting opportunities so far exceeded anything I could have dreamed of as a kid that I would be embarrassed and guilt-ridden to complain for more opportunity than what avails us in the hunting world today.

Now, to figure out my WY app for this year.

Lot of wisdom in that post and something I vow to work harder at emulating.

 

[sbhooper]

I think 10% is about right. I appreciate that NR hunters have to pay more for their tag (and licenses where applicable) as well as pump some money into the state via lodging, etc. I'd guess resident hunters have more of a loyalty to putting money in their own state's system for a longer period of time, and are footing the majority of the bill that way. I'm glad to see AZ making NRs purchase the license just to enter the draw for those that want to play the point-building game. I'd like to see more states bump up the charge for resident tags a little bit, so there's not a 10x or 20x disparity on the price between resident and NR.

Az is pure nonsense. I don't mind having to buy the license, but if I don't draw, then the money should be refunded. What part is fair about stealing $150 bucks just to ALLOW you to apply? Charge for pref points if you want, as many do, but I don't chase points and if I don't draw, then I should not have to contribute $150 to the coffers.

 

[Dinkshooter]

What isnt fair to the sportsmen of Colorado is the number of transfereable landowner tags they hand out.

I could deal with sharing any percentage of tags/resource with a fellow NR sportsman from Alabama, Texas, etc. much easier than watching CDOW hand over the landowner tags to the tag-pimps, RFW, outfitters, etc.

Just sayin'...

This!!

 

[Dinkshooter]

True. I would kick and scream before I would accept the model Colorado has in my home state. But, given the hunter numbers in CO, you would need some serious restrictions on NR tag numbers AND travel restrictions to allow for your deer and elk to live past age 2.5 years.

I see more ATVs in one week of hunting in CO than I see in eleven weeks of hunting in MT. That has a serious impact on buck/bull mortality. Given the people I see using them, I think CO has little hope of reigning in motorized travel during hunting season. As such, the long season opportunities you see in MT are probably not a realistic expectation for CO.

They closed a local road here this fall on the forest. Not a very long one but it does drop down a bit and dies out next to private. The locals and non-locals who hunt the area went ballistic. Handing out flyers to call the FS supervisor office, vowing to keep the road open, bitching and moaning, etc. By the end of the 2nd rifle season the little fence built to block the road was destroyed and all the road closed signs were gone.

If those retrads put the effort into hiking down into the area that they did trashing public property, they might have shot an elk.

You might as well suggest insulating elementary schools with asbestos as suggesting a road in Colorado be closed. Same outcry.

 

[Dinkshooter]

I got into to a little contest this fall with some local motorheads I chat with daily.

They put the anti Forest Service sticker on my car, I retaliated with the BHA stickers on theirs, and this is what is what they came up with in return………………….

HA!

 

[Dinkshooter]

Now back to bashing NRs!

 

[BuzzH]

Az is pure nonsense. I don't mind having to buy the license, but if I don't draw, then the money should be refunded. What part is fair about stealing $150 bucks just to ALLOW you to apply? Charge for pref points if you want, as many do, but I don't chase points and if I don't draw, then I should not have to contribute $150 to the coffers.

sbhooper,

I disagree. Why are you not looking at the $150 license fee each year as:

1. An opportunity

2. An investment into wildlife management, education, etc.

I find it odd that so many hunters (not picking on sbhooper here or anyone else), who claim to care about the sport, are so unwilling to help financially with wildlife management?

Really? Complaining about a $150 a year, barely 50 gallons of fuel for a vehicle, that is going to help ensure that when you DO draw a tag, the wildlife there has been properly managed. WOW! and I mean WOW!

What I find nonsense, is both R's and NR's, who do virtually NOTHING extra for wildlife, whine about the small amount of money they contribute each year via license and tags. Let me be the first to break the news, you arent going all out with your tag purchase.

Its up to each hunter to maximize their investment in states like NV, UT, and AZ that charge up front for a license to apply.

You'll hear no whining from me about a $150 AZ hunting license...use it wisely (or not) you decide.

I'll donate my $150 to Arizona as long as I'm alive...and greedily. Pretty cheap investment considering the Quality of the opportunities and wildlife found there:

 

[noharleyyet]

License...150
Elk Tag....7-900???
The chance to cuddle with AZ402...priceless

 

[Bambistew]

Big Fin, thanks for the real numbers.

I'd rather have 18.4% than 35% and unlimited otc elk tags.. Its not fair to the sportsmen of Colorado.

I think you may be surprised by the real numbers in CO.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=V-tzSNZncaE6RfBcNgGWPg&bvm=bv.57967247,d.cGU

This says 90k NR permits and 418k resident permits. It doesn't break down deer/elk, but I'll bet if you dig a bit you can find the actual numbers. I would bet the ratio would be similar. Pretty sure its listed in the yearly harvest stats on their hunting resource page.

I really like hunting in CO. The last 5-6 hunts down there I've seen very few hunters, and have taken some really nice animals, in easy to draw or left over units.

 

[Bambistew]

I couldn't find a specific break down but found enough to do the math. 375k elk, deer and antelope hunters each fall including resident and NR per a number found on CPW site... and stats

2012
Deer draw
Residents 51k
NR 12K 19%

Elk draw
Res 65k
NR 28k 30%

Antelope draw
Res 41k
NR 13k 24%

91k total NR (assumes elk/deer/lope/bird/small game) per link above
12k+28k+13k=53k draw tags
That leaves 91k-53k = 38k Nonresidents for OTC elk, bird and small game.

Similarly for residents leaves
51k+65k+41k = 157k Resident draw tags (75% of all draw tags)
375k (total E/D/A) - 157k (res draw) - 91k (total NR) = 109k OTC elk, small game and bird hunters.

That works out to be about 25% of all permits are issued to NR both draw and OTC.

 

[sbhooper]

sbhooper,

I disagree. Why are you not looking at the $150 license fee each year as:

1. An opportunity

2. An investment into wildlife management, education, etc.

I find it odd that so many hunters (not picking on sbhooper here or anyone else), who claim to care about the sport, are so unwilling to help financially with wildlife management?

Really? Complaining about a $150 a year, barely 50 gallons of fuel for a vehicle, that is going to help ensure that when you DO draw a tag, the wildlife there has been properly managed. WOW! and I mean WOW!

What I find nonsense, is both R's and NR's, who do virtually NOTHING extra for wildlife, whine about the small amount of money they contribute each year via license and tags. Let me be the first to break the news, you arent going all out with your tag purchase.

Its up to each hunter to maximize their investment in states like NV, UT, and AZ that charge up front for a license to apply.

You'll hear no whining from me about a $150 AZ hunting license...use it wisely (or not) you decide.

I'll donate my $150 to Arizona as long as I'm alive...and greedily. Pretty cheap investment considering the Quality of the opportunities and wildlife found there:

It is your money, Buzz, and I understand if you want to hand it over to them. It looks to me like you usually utilize it and that is a different story. I am not going to drive to AZ just to use my license. They want me to pay now $160 to buy a license just to apply for a big game tag and then they are also raising all the fees even more this year.

By your rationale, I should just write checks to every western state where I think that I might want to hunt just in the name of wildlife management. Then, the state can turn around and for the wildlife MANAGEMENT fee that I am paying, break it off in me again for the permit!! Maybe you have the money to do that, but I don't.

I have friends in Az and lived there for many years. I know where good hunting is, but I cannot even get a reasonably-priced cow elk permit there. If I want to go quail hunting or varmint calling with my buddies, I will gladly buy the permit and utilize it, but if I am going to just throw money at wildlife management, I will write my checks here.

 

[BuzzH]

sbhooper,

I also understand your position, even though I think its not using very good logic.

I just believe that paying $150-$160 a year to apply for AZ, even if I dont draw or utilize the license to its potential...is still rather cheap.

In particular when you consider that with just the tags I've drawn, to do guided hunts with guaranteed tags, I've probably done the equivelant of $80,000 in guided hunts in AZ.

Desert sheep alone is 50-60K these days. Elk hunts of the quality found in AZ, probably 5K each, minimum. Coues deer, probably $3500. Not sure what guided javelina hunts run.

I've done all that for less than $5K in license fees and hunting licenses, well worth the price of admission.

I guess its just a matter of perspective and priorities. I'd shovel snow to be able to come up with $150 to apply in Arizona, its just not that much money in the big picture.

I still view the cost of licenses, applications, etc. as an investment...and if I never draw, I'm good with that. I find satisfaction in knowing that even if I dont draw, I've done my small part to help wildlife, other hunters, and further wildlife management.

I just hope Arizona continues to "break it off in me again"...hopefully for Rocky permit.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Az is pure nonsense. I don't mind having to buy the license, but if I don't draw, then the money should be refunded. What part is fair about stealing $150 bucks just to ALLOW you to apply? Charge for pref points if you want, as many do, but I don't chase points and if I don't draw, then I should not have to contribute $150 to the coffers.

If this bothers you then don't apply in Az. That's what I do. Obviously most think its worth the cost.