One way to stop a corner cross

[Highfastflyer]

View attachment 187158

 

[Nebbowhntr]

Ask Randy Newberg’s attorney as Randy discusses it at length in the podcast I posted above. Would you really want a stable of attorneys gunning for you from Phillip Anschutz or Ted Turner? They could care less about money, it is all about power and control and manipulating you into staying out. Just a few off the top of my head would be:

• Loss of market value;
• Discomfort and annoyance;
• Emotional distress;
• Loss of use of the property;
• Physical injury to the individual who tripped in your number 12 boot prints and damage to the land.

You probably wouldn’t damage the land in the slightest but the politically elected Judge may tend to agree with the plaintif

You really think a judge would believe some sob story about emotional distress from someone swinging an arm over a fence line? I mean, would any of these landowners sue you in civil court for standing in the road ditch wand waving your arm over the fence once? I highly doubt it, that alone proves they are trying to protect the public land and not their private land.

 

[Highfastflyer]

You really think a judge would believe some sob story about emotional distress from someone swinging an arm over a fence line? I mean, would any of these landowners sue you in civil court for standing in the road ditch wand waving your arm over the fence once? I highly doubt it, that alone proves they are trying to protect the public land and not their private land.

No probably not for just one time but repeated attempts causing harassment or personal distress and harm might qualify as emotional distress. The issue isn’t waving your arm though it’s stepping across a corner pin and whether you have trespassed or not. Randy’s team of attorneys he spoke with said it is highly likely it constitutes a civil trespass. Listen to the podcast referenced above.

 

[Bob-WY]

Make all property lines 1 foot wide and the line is equally owned by all abutters, problem solved

 

[cur dog]

Make all property lines 1 foot wide and the line is equally owned by all abutters, problem solved

What if you wear a size 13 boot and are slightly pigeon toed? Asking for a friend.

 

[Sytes]

25" wide boot on a 2' easement? 1' for each property line?

We're back to the Peter North meme again. Haha!

 

[Nebbowhntr]

No probably not for just one time but repeated attempts causing harassment or personal distress and harm might qualify as emotional distress. The issue isn’t waving your arm though it’s stepping across a corner pin and whether you have trespassed or not. Randy’s team of attorneys he spoke with said it is highly likely it constitutes a civil trespass. Listen to the podcast referenced above.

I listened to it. Do you have any knowledge of any civil suites about corner crossing to hunt public lands? I really can’t see a judge finding that you caused emotional distress for touching the airspace of the landowner for a half a second. I think it’s so blatantly obvious that they are protecting a public resource so it can be used for their own gain that no judge would find that you caused emotional distress.

What would they claim emotional distress for? Staying up at night worrying about someone shooting an elk that no one owns on public property?

The podcast really didn’t come to any sort of conclusion, besides the fact that Randy Newberg doesn’t corner cross because he’s a public figure and doesn’t want to get involved with it.

 

[MlyHunter35]

What a convoluted mess.........

 

[Bowhunter413]

This just sounds like a big headache

 

[Highfastflyer]

I listened to it. Do you have any knowledge of any civil suites about corner crossing to hunt public lands? I really can’t see a judge finding that you caused emotional distress for touching the airspace of the landowner for a half a second. I think it’s so blatantly obvious that they are protecting a public resource so it can be used for their own gain that no judge would find that you caused emotional distress.

What would they claim emotional distress for? Staying up at night worrying about someone shooting an elk that no one owns on public property?

The podcast really didn’t come to any sort of conclusion, besides the fact that Randy Newberg doesn’t corner cross because he’s a public figure and doesn’t want to get involved with it.

The damages would not just be emotional distress they could include these beside many others:

• Loss of market value;
• Discomfort and annoyance;
• Emotional distress;
• Loss of use of the property;
• Costs of restoration; and
• Physical injury to the individual or to the land.

​

I do know of many trespassing lawsuits where these damages have been awarded. In order to demonstrate trespass they would show a person:

• The defendant entered onto or through the land;
• The land belonged to another individual;
• The defendant did not have consent to enter; and
• Damages.

It is important to note that simply entering onto or through another individual’s land may be enough for the plaintiff to bring a valid trespassing claim in most states. This may be the case even if the defendant does not cause any damages to the plaintiff or their property. Again……..Would you really want a dozen or more high paid attorneys from a large firm or firms working for multi-billionaires harassing you from the likes of Ted Turner or Phillip Anschutz?

 

[Highfastflyer]

25" wide boot on a 2' easement? 1' for each property line?

We're back to the Peter North meme again. Haha!

North Dakota is the best example for how to professionally create a useable easement. Every section of land in North Dakota has a 66 foot easement surrounding each section so 33 feet on either side of the section line is a public easement which could be used if authorised as a road but in most cases is just a foot path easement. The state can authorise the closing of these easements but is very rare and very difficult in order to get approval to close them. It is NOT public land you can‘t hunt but you could walk upon it. This would require a state legislature to perform an eminent domain type procedure and fully compensate the landowners around every section in the state with landlocked public land where feasible so it would be an extremely EXPENISVE condemnation action. The cost would entail about 4 acres around each section ie 5280 X 33 is about 4 acres X 4 sides of the section so about 16 acres lost per section and an agricultural price of $1000 X 16= $16,000 per section would have to be paid to each section owner. In Wyoming with about 3 million acres of landlocked public land is about 4687 sections of landlocked public so you would need to pay landowners $16,000 X 4687 sections to open it up equals about $75,000,000.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

North Dakota is the best example for how to professionally create a useable easement. Every section of land in North Dakota has a 66 foot easement surrounding each section so 33 feet on either side of the section line is a public easement which could be used if authorised as a road but in most cases is just a foot path easement. The state can authorise the closing of these easements but is very rare and very difficult in order to get approval to close them. It is NOT public land you can‘t hunt but you could walk upon it. This would require a state legislature to perform an eminent domain type procedure and fully compensate the landowners around every section in the state with landlocked public land where feasible so it would be an extremely EXPENISVE condemnation action. The cost would entail about 4 acres around each section ie 5280 X 33 is about 4 acres X 4 sides of the section so about 16 acres lost per section and an agricultural price of $1000 X 16= $16,000 per section would have to be paid to each section owner. In Wyoming with about 3 million acres of landlocked public land is about 4687 sections of landlocked public so you would need to pay landowners $16,000 X 4687 sections to open it up equals about $75,000,000.

Seems a bit steep for a lot of the effected lands.

Why would you need to condemn lands for an easement? Title isn’t being transferred and their aren’t any appreciable damages.
————————————

I had a conversation yesterday with a Wyoming landowner (4,000 + acres) who was telling me that WY is a fence out state, meaning that if you don’t fence your property and someone’s cows cross onto your land, it’s your fault.

So if my cows cross into your property, graze your lands, that’s not an issue? But if I cross over 10 inches of your “airspace” that is?

Further I think in the reverse situation landowners would lose their shit, eg. for a while in the early part of this year the BLM was refusing to permit OG roads on federal lands. Which is to say precedence for the fed not allowing access. So say a landowner signed a lease with a company and they were going to build a pad site on his land, but said pad was to be located on a parcel locked in by public land and you had to build a road at a corner. How do you think that conversation would go down about the BLM not allowing a road to be built on a corner.

 

[Highfastflyer]

Seems a bit steep for a lot of the effected lands.

Why would you need to condemn lands for an easement? Title isn’t being transferred and their aren’t any appreciable damages.
————————————

I had a conversation yesterday with a Wyoming landowner (4,000 + acres) who was telling me that WY is a fence out state, meaning that if you don’t fence your property and someone’s cows cross onto your land, it’s your fault.

So if my cows cross into your property, graze your lands, that’s not an issue? But if I cross over 10 inches of your “airspace” that is?

Condemn, as in force you to create a permanent easement which you no longer can control who has access to those lands yet you would still retain ownership but with easement restrictions. Whatever you want to call that type of legal action. Yes, Wyoming is a fence out state as it is controlled by the Wyoming Stockgrowers Association. Cows have far more rights than hunters in Wyoming.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Condemn, as in force you to create a permanent easement which you no longer can control who has access to those lands yet you would still retain ownership but with easement restrictions. Whatever you want to call that type of legal action. Yes, Wyoming is a fence out state as it is controlled by the Wyoming Stockgrowers Association. Cows have far more rights than hunters in Wyoming.

I would imagine in your ND example they have the right to build a road? Which is a very different right-of-way then pedestrian traffic, at a corner.

With the later right-of-way you wouldn’t be losing any agricultural or mineral estate value. Honestly I don’t think any compensation would be required.

 

[TheJason]

Montana is also a fence out state.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Montana is also a fence out state.

How does cattle retrieval work? Can you trespass to get your cows?

Solution?

 

[Sytes]

Every section of land in North Dakota has a 66 foot easement surrounding each section so 33 feet on either side of the section line is a public easement which could be used if authorised as a road but in most cases is just a foot path easement.

ND does sound like they have a good corner definition for sections of land at public/private boundaries based on your description. As for MT... way too many buy the land for the purpose of privacy.
If that means a fraction of an inch in definition to not have public in/around your private property, increased fire hazards to private land, etc...
PERC will fight tooth and nail.

 

[Highfastflyer]

I would imagine in your ND example they have the right to build a road? Which is a very different right-of-way then pedestrian traffic, at a corner.

With the later right-of-way you wouldn’t be losing any agricultural or mineral estate value. Honestly I don’t think any compensation would be required.

North Dakota was just using great foresight when they set up their system which has served all public land users well. In most cases there are no roads and in some cases may not even be foot trails but at least a 66 foot easement surrounds every section so even if your GPS is off a bit you can stay on public easement path without trespassing.
If you think you could try and set up a system with no direct compensation to the landowner then you are very naive and these large landowners would fight vehemently against any free easement attempts. Most of them have stables of large attorney firms working for them. Giving just compensation which actually isn’t that much at $1000 per acre would need to be a cornerstone of any equitable attempt to recover landlocked public lands. I don’t see this ever changing unless some compromise along the lines of the North Dakota model is utilised.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

North Dakota was just using great foresight when they set up their system which has served all public land users well. In most cases there are no roads and in some cases may not even be foot trails but at least a 66 foot easement surrounds every section so even if your GPS is off a bit you can stay on public easement path without trespassing.
If you think you could try and set up a system with no direct compensation to the landowner then you are very naive and these large landowners would fight vehemently against any free easement attempts. Most of them have stables of large attorney firms working for them. Giving just compensation which actually isn’t that much at $1000 per acre would need to be a cornerstone of any equitable attempt to recover landlocked public lands. I don’t see this ever changing unless some compromise along the lines of the North Dakota model is utilised.

Would court fees for the state exceed 75MM if not seems cheaper to deal with the litigation.

In the case of corner crossing the easements would be measured in square feet not acres, you could try sending folks checks for $200 but I think for most private landowners that are against corner crossing the money would not stop litigation so why pay them? There are likely landowners that would balk at 10MM for one corner, further who is paying for the title costs to determine where the thousands of checks would go? See Kelo v. City of New London

You are never going to get every landowner on board. So inevitably there will be a lawsuit and the courts will decide, so at some point the state legislatures just need to sack up, knowing they will end up in court.

Many state already allow various types of recreational trespass, esp on land that isn’t posted. Modify the trespass law and call it a day.

 

[Wildabeest]

Condemn, as in force you to create a permanent easement which you no longer can control who has access to those lands yet you would still retain ownership but with easement restrictions. Whatever you want to call that type of legal action. Yes, Wyoming is a fence out state as it is controlled by the Wyoming Stockgrowers Association. Cows have far more rights than hunters in Wyoming.

And even fences don’t keep them out. I get cattle in my yard in WY all the time despite the entire property being fenced. They have learned to step through the rails or knock out the bottom rail to get in. I don’t really mind it though - just part of the deal when choosing to live in remote places.