One way to stop a corner cross

[Highfastflyer]

As Randy stated above in the above mentioned podcast, many govt. jurisdictions will not issue a citation for corner hopping. The bigger issue is you could now be a defendant in a lengthy Civil lawsuit for trespassing and have a stable full of highly competent lawyers harassing and pursuing you relentlessly from extremely rich and powerful ranch owners like Ted Turner, Koch brothers and Phillip Anschutz. Many people cheat on their taxes and never get caught but when you do you won’t like the outcome, it’s just not worth the fear, harassment and potential punishment. Randy has stated a few times he has received multiple opinions from various attorneys on how corner hopping is considered a Civil trespass. It’s not the criminal issue to fear, it’s the Civil trespass issue and this is why Randy won’t do it.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Fascinating conversation folks.

In regards to ND, I was a student or resident there from 2004-2012 and spent hundreds of days out hunting, almost entirely private. We always knew the section line easement law in regards to driving down questionable two tracks to access waterfowl hunting spots and a lot of the time the land wasn't posted (read: open to hunting) anyway. Because basically everything around where I hunted was private, i never gave a second thought to these easements in the context discussed here. Perhaps I may have if I had spent more time in the badlands.

In the eastern half of the state, there are a lot of mature tree lines on these section lines which raises some questions in which I'm too lazy to find the answers:
1. Is it assumed most of these tree lines were formally closed as section lines many decades ago?
2. Once formally closed, can you still use them to access even if they don't accommodate vehicle access?
3. Have there been issues with people hunting on these tree lines because technically they are a "public easement"? I never ran into this.

I have a good college buddy who farms 30+k acres between valley city and Jamestown and is an avid hunter. I've never heard him complain once about people abusing the section line law which surprises me but he's also a damn generous guy who doesn't greedily protect the massive hunting opportunities he has.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

3. Have there been issues with people hunting on these tree lines because technically they are a "public easement"? I never ran into this.

No, those easements don’t allow hunting, but in ND you can trespass to hunt if a property isn’t posted. Other states have similar laws, that allow for public hunting of private property if it’s not posted, ME, MA, etc.
Recently ND has allowed landowner to electronically post their land:

Electronic and Physical Posting Information | North Dakota Game and Fish

Electronic Posting | Physical Posting Landowners (or individuals authorized by the owner of land) may post land to prohibit hunting either physically, electronically or both.

gf.nd.gov

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Thanks for sharing, very interesting on the digital posting front. I had been fairly involved with the various hunting and fishing bills when I was there but have since lost touch.

 

[JLS]

It’s not the criminal issue to fear, it’s the Civil trespass issue and this is why Randy won’t do it.

Any examples of a court agreeing to take on a civil trespass as a result of corner crossing?

 

[YoungGun]

Tough couple pages to gut through. I haven't seen Phillip Anschutz referenced this many times since reading an ESPN article about the Laker's.

Although most Agencies/States won't acknowledge corner crossing as legal, I'd be curious to see how many folks on here can find States that explicitly state it's illegal. I know for Montana, at least the last time I checked, they won't outright label it illegal. As for trespassing, Montana Code Annotated explicitly states that you have to knowingly enter or remain on another's property. As a LEO, I can say that if it was apparent that someone was corner crossing and doing their absolute best to cross at the corner, I would not personally cite them, as I don't think it would meet the threshold of "knowingly". The caveat that FWP will use is "hunting without permission", which frankly is a stretch for corner crossing, as it reads that "A resident or nonresident shall obtain permission of the landowner, the lessee, or their agents before taking or attempting to take game animals, migratory game birds, nongame wildlife, predatory animals, upland game birds, or wolves while hunting on private property." I think the burden of proof to show that you were hunting while on that miniscule portion of private at the corner would be a tough sell.

 

[JLS]

Although most Agencies/States won't acknowledge corner crossing as legal, I'd be curious to see how many folks on here can find States that explicitly state it's illegal.

Ding ding ding…

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Tough couple pages to gut through. I haven't seen Phillip Anschutz referenced this many times since reading an ESPN article about the Laker's.

Although most Agencies/States won't acknowledge corner crossing as legal, I'd be curious to see how many folks on here can find States that explicitly state it's illegal. I know for Montana, at least the last time I checked, they won't outright label it illegal. As for trespassing, Montana Code Annotated explicitly states that you have to knowingly enter or remain on another's property. As a LEO, I can say that if it was apparent that someone was corner crossing and doing their absolute best to cross at the corner, I would not personally cite them, as I don't think it would meet the threshold of "knowingly". The caveat that FWP will use is "hunting without permission", which frankly is a stretch for corner crossing, as it reads that "A resident or nonresident shall obtain permission of the landowner, the lessee, or their agents before taking or attempting to take game animals, migratory game birds, nongame wildlife, predatory animals, upland game birds, or wolves while hunting on private property." I think the burden of proof to show that you were hunting while on that miniscule portion of private at the corner would be a tough sell.

MT Civil Trespass Bill

Eric Moore's bill SB 299 to create a civil penalty for trespass passed the Senate 27-23 and will move onto the House soon. It would bypass the criminal trespass law. I'm not good at reading laws, but I think the way this works is the landowner can collect not less than $1500 from you if he...

www.hunttalk.com

I revisited this thread, I believe this bill died? @Ben Lamb, I’m a dumb dumb where do we stand on this?

 

[Ben Lamb]

 

[Deleted member 28227]

View attachment 188962

Merci beaucoup

 

[Ben Lamb]

Merci beaucoup

It's,,, been dead...... for 9 years.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It's,,, been dead...... for 9 years.

Yeah I just wasn’t sure how to figure out what happened to old bills, and I figured @‘ing you was faster than google.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Yeah I just wasn’t sure how to figure out what happened to old bills, and I figured @‘ing you was faster than google.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

View attachment 188965

Teach a man to fish?

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Tough couple pages to gut through. I haven't seen Phillip Anschutz referenced this many times since reading an ESPN article about the Laker's.

Although most Agencies/States won't acknowledge corner crossing as legal, I'd be curious to see how many folks on here can find States that explicitly state it's illegal. I know for Montana, at least the last time I checked, they won't outright label it illegal. As for trespassing, Montana Code Annotated explicitly states that you have to knowingly enter or remain on another's property. As a LEO, I can say that if it was apparent that someone was corner crossing and doing their absolute best to cross at the corner, I would not personally cite them, as I don't think it would meet the threshold of "knowingly". The caveat that FWP will use is "hunting without permission", which frankly is a stretch for corner crossing, as it reads that "A resident or nonresident shall obtain permission of the landowner, the lessee, or their agents before taking or attempting to take game animals, migratory game birds, nongame wildlife, predatory animals, upland game birds, or wolves while hunting on private property." I think the burden of proof to show that you were hunting while on that miniscule portion of private at the corner would be a tough sell.

Lol Hell Yes

 

[Highfastflyer]

Any examples of a court agreeing to take on a civil trespass as a result of corner crossing?

There are many examples of civil trespassing lawsuits. The worst cases on the books now stem from Idaho’s new trespassing law. This will make it very costly to anyone if found trespassing.

The Idaho law, written without any consultation with sportsmen and recreationists, raises the trespassing fine to $500 and makes civil trespass a strict liability offense. “ Kahle Becker, former deputy attorney general for Idaho, says that trespassers who challenge the law and then lose in court will be responsible for the plaintiff’s attorney fees. This could cost anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000.”

Nobody wants an entire firm of highly competent lawyers from these rich landowners unleashed on you to pursue you relentlessly.

Trespassing In Idaho Now Could Cost You $100,000—Or Worse

A new trespassing law, combined with a new stand your ground law, could get you shot.

www.adventure-journal.com

 

[JLS]

There are many examples of civil trespassing lawsuits. The worst cases on the books now stem from Idaho’s new trespassing law. This will make it very costly to anyone if found trespassing.

The Idaho law, written without any consultation with sportsmen and recreationists, raises the trespassing fine to $500 and makes civil trespass a strict liability offense. “ Kahle Becker, former deputy attorney general for Idaho, says that trespassers who challenge the law and then lose in court will be responsible for the plaintiff’s attorney fees. This could cost anywhere from $20,000 to $100,000.”

Nobody wants an entire firm of highly competent lawyers from these rich landowners unleashed on you to pursue you relentlessly.

Trespassing In Idaho Now Could Cost You $100,000—Or Worse

A new trespassing law, combined with a new stand your ground law, could get you shot.

www.adventure-journal.com

Sorry, I guess i should have been more specific. Any examples of a court in Wyoming taking on a civil trespass case for corner hopping?

 

[Highfastflyer]

Sorry, I guess i should have been more specific. Any examples of a court in Wyoming taking on a civil trespass case for corner hopping?

I do know of a recent corner hopping case on Elk Mountain where two guys tried leading horses across a corner pin. The Judge didn’t buy it and they were fined.

In Idaho the trespass law is quite specific as it says “Enters in or remains on”. so the very act of entering through the airspace above the corner pin is a penetration of that space. I wouldn’t want to test it and I am sure the Koch brothers are very willing to unleash their dawgs (attorneys) on a Civil lawsuit.

There is a path forward if we compensate and pay them for an easement along the North Dakota style model but it will likely cost $100 Million just in Wyoming alone. Since Bezos hands out $100MM like Candy, maybe we could convince him of our sportsmen plight. LOL

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Sorry, I guess i should have been more specific. Any examples of a court in Wyoming taking on a civil trespass case for corner hopping?

I have yet to find any, in any state that doesn’t have statutes granting damages. They may exist.

Let’s put North Dakota to bed, they aren’t easements in the sense of purchase agreements or condemnation aka eminent domain, they are reservations. They are a piece of The Public Trust Doctrine, in the same body of law as navigable waterways. The exist only because they were retained at statehood.

https://commons.und.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2391&context=ndlr

The federal government could acquire easements with individual landowners, this could be a large scale agreement for all the checkerboard in WY, it could be done in conjunction with the state of WY, it could provide walk-in access, and the easements could look like 33ft buffers around section lines, and landowners could be paid for them.

This is not what happened in North Dakota, it’s not how the North Dakota law works.

 

[JLS]

I do know of a recent corner hopping case on Elk Mountain where two guys tried leading horses across a corner pin. The Judge didn’t buy it and they were fined.

In Idaho the trespass law is quite specific as it says “Enters in or remains on”. so the very act of entering through the airspace above the corner pin is a penetration of that space. I wouldn’t want to test it and I am sure the Koch brothers are very willing to unleash their dawgs (attorneys) on a Civil lawsuit.

There is a path forward if we compensate and pay them for an easement along the North Dakota style model but it will likely cost $100 Million just in Wyoming alone. Since Bezos hands out $100MM like Candy, maybe we could convince him of our sportsmen plight. LOL

So, I take it you don’t know of any specific examples of a civil trespass case and/or judgement from corner hopping in Wyoming.

You sure are fixated on “unleashing a stable of highly competent attorneys”, and name
dropping rich folks.

What financial motive do you have and what ranch(es) do you represent?