Old Dry Doe Myth

[COEngineer]

Meateater started a pretty good series of articles, but I think this one is of particular interest.

https://www.themeateater.com/conser...ent/fact-checker-do-old-whitetail-does-go-dry

Bottom line: "Multiple studies conducted by wildlife biologists have proven that almost all does bear fawns every year until death."

I don't have any data, but I'm pretty sure this is true of elk as well.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Well fecundity rates certainly vary according to a bunch of factors, but in general principle I agree.
And as has been noted a time or two around here, it seems like every cow someone shoots is a "nice fat cow" or an "old dry cow". Once you start looking for it in posts you realize 95% of cows out there must be both exceedingly nice and very fat, ha.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

And fwiw I'd trust Buzz to sort through what cow is what, but some guy from GA (no offense meant I just picked one) or wherever on 24hourcampfire isn't gonna convince me that his cow is the fattest just because it's like 9x the size of a southern whitetail.

 

[El Jason]

The only physiological reasons for them to stop bearing young is disease or malnutrition.

I’ve killed cows that weren’t lactating, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t have young. The calf could have been killed by predators, die of disease, or already weaned off.

 

[Irrelevant]

hahaha! Damnstraight, all my cows were really nice.... eating

 

[Duck-Slayer]

hahaha! Damnstraight, all my cows were really nice.... eating

Nice!
Matt

 

[JTHOMP]

The dry old doe is the female version of every buck killed as a cull.

 

[Pucky Freak]

The doe I killed this year had weaned her fawn, but was not "dry." I seriously doubt any of the 15 or so does I've killed were dry. Some had lost or weaned their young, but all would have gone on to reproduce. That's the whole point - reduce current and future population. Shoot a "dry" elk/deer and you kind of failed in the management perspective, same as shooting a shed antler animal.

 

[idelkslayer]

Along with the "old dry doe" which as has been stated seems to be 90% of all does killed; I also love the buck that was "chasing a hot doe".

It seems like nearly every whitetail buck I hear about was chasing a hot doe when it was killed or he was following a trail with his nose to the ground.

I remember a prank video from a few years back. The hunter was unaware that his friends were pranking him and they set up a buck decoy with impressive antlers on the edge of field. After the hunter's shot, it fell over exactly how a rigid decoy would, flat on it's side and just out of sight behind the slope of the hill. The hunter then spoke into the camera retelling the experience and describing how the buck came out chasing a "hot doe". Since then whenever I hear a hunting story I always wonder how much of the story was fabricated in the mind of the hunter because they want to portray a certain narrative.

 

[COEngineer]

This was the one that threw the red flag for me: ShaneMahoneyOldDryCowYoutubeRMEF

Especially disappointing because it's RMEF and Shane Mahoney, who I thought would KNOW better.

 

[shoots-straight]

This was the one that threw the red flag for me: ShaneMahoneyOldDryCowYoutubeRMEF

Especially disappointing because it's RMEF and Shane Mahoney, who I thought would KNOW better.

All they said was that she was a dry cow. That means to me that she had not been lactating for awhile. She didn't have a young of the year with her. That is what we refer to a cow, or deer as being dry.

 

[shoots-straight]

In a hunting district I spend lots of time in, the rate for cow elk getting PG is around 67%. That means that 3 out of 10 cows are dry each year just to begin with. Then as the predators and environment takes it's toll on the calves, more cows become dry.

I think Shane Mahoney knows what a Dry cow is.

 

[El Jason]

All they said was that she was a dry cow. That means to me that she had not been lactating for awhile. She didn't have a young of the year with her. That is what we refer to a cow, or deer as being dry.

Yep. Absolutely correct

I think some folks are confusing issues here. The myth is not that a cow or doe will not or cannot be dry. Some certainly will because you will never achieve 100% conception rate, let alone 100% birth rate on top of that.

The myth is that they essentially become barren and will no longer produce young for the rest of their life. What can and does happen though, is their productivity can decrease. This is largely due to injury, disease, or nutrition.

Typically what you are are females with worn down teeth that are them more susceptible to the rigors of pregnancy and lactation, so they may not conceive every year as a result. In the ranching world these are referred to as broken mouth cows, and is essentially the same in deer and elk.

 

[El Jason]

In a hunting district I spend lots of time in, the rate for cow elk getting PG is around 67%. That means that 3 out of 10 cows are dry each year just to begin with. Then as the predators and environment takes it's toll on the calves, more cows become dry.

I think Shane Mahoney knows what a Dry cow is.

Yes. And then you take the pregnant cows and figure in your survival rate for calves, which can range from zero to 90%, and that leaves a lot of opportunity to encounter a dry cow.

 

[COEngineer]

All they said was that she was a dry cow. That means to me that she had not been lactating for awhile. She didn't have a young of the year with her. That is what we refer to a cow, or deer as being dry.

Calves are weaned at about 2 months old, so by November or whenever that hunt took place, all the cows were "dry." So then there would be no point in noting that.

Maybe not the best reference, but I can't find anything better after a quick google: https://animaldiversity.org/site/accounts/information/Cervus_elaphus.html

 

[El Jason]

Calves are weaned at about 2 months old, so by November or whenever that hunt took place, all the cows were "dry." So then there would be no point in noting that.

Maybe not the best reference, but I can't find anything better after a quick google: https://animaldiversity.org/site/accounts/information/Cervus_elaphus.html

Not all hunts take place in November. I’ve shot cows in November that still had swollen udders and residual milk in the mammary tissue.

 

[Aussie_hunter_JD]

It most definitely happens, i grew up on farm and almost every year some cows and/or sheep never calved or lambed. Sometimes only once, sometimes they were genuinely barren and we had to sell them. Happens with people too (unable to have kids, not selling that is).

I've shot female deer when they should be nursing, with no fawn and upon inspection no milk. Never thought it was a case of they're too old. But not getting successfully bred that year or being barren is a definite possibility.

A meateater article isn't gospel.

 

[COEngineer]

It most definitely happens, i grew up on farm and almost every year some cows and/or sheep never calved or lambed. Sometimes only once, sometimes they were genuinely barren and we had to sell them. Happens with people too (unable to have kids, not selling that is).

I've shot female deer when they should be nursing, with no fawn and upon inspection no milk. Never thought it was a case of they're too old. But not getting successfully bred that year or being barren is a definite possibility.

A meateater article isn't gospel.

But your anecdotal evidence is better??

 

[Gerald Martin]

I always considered a dry doe or a cow as one that didn’t currently have a fawn or calf with it. The actual percentage of barren deer or elk is pretty low. The number of does and cows whose fawn or calf died before hunting season is much higher.

IMO, shooting a cow or die with a calf is not going to cause that young animal to starve. However, there is a higher chance it is more succeptible to predation without it’s mother.