I'm dizzy after reading that, wow!, at least I have something to look forward to in the morning, I'm currently sitting in my truck somewhere between Alzada and Ekalaka, gonna sleep in the front seat tonight and look for a good antelope buck over the next 4 or 5 days.
NFL guy says he'll quit before standing for the flag
- Thread starter uncle sage
- Start date
SFC B
Well-known member
As my fellow veteran and retiree has intimated, sir, I have no idea what made you think you had a grasp on our constitution but it is clear THAT was a mistake. As for we service members and veterans (many, like me, are veterans of at least 2 wars), don't you DARE even THINK you have any standing to question our service OR opinions about those who chose to disrespect our flag!!! Further, as someone from a country that has chosen to elect that blithering idiot, nut-job you have up there paying off terrorists you have ZERO standing to talk about our president either. Look into your own train-wreck before you worry about ours, eh?
uncle sage
Member
Me too! Good luck on your hunt! You gotta figure that he's there. Now you got the fun to find him and then to take care of business. I'm a week behind you, can't wait.
I respect the right of people to protest what they perceive to be injustices. That being said, those protesting must understand how their actions are being interpreted. They don't think they are disrespecting our military or our country, but myself and many others see it differently. It makes me pretty angry to see this protest, regardless of intentions. The national anthem is a time for all of us to take a minute and be thankful for our freedom and the men and women who have made it possible.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
Pocket Constitution √
Internet √
.... let's go Merica!
Internet √
.... let's go Merica!
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...mp-colin-kaepernick-nfl-united-states-america
Ex-Green Beret Nate Boyer pens open letter to Trump, Kaepernick, NFL and America
Editor's note: More than a year after penning an open letter to Colin Kaepernick, former Army Green Beret and NFL player Nate Boyer writes another one, this time calling for unity across all sides of the United States. Here's his letter, as told to ESPN San Francisco 49ers reporter Nick Wagoner.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Dear Every Single American,
Every. Single. American. Including President Trump, Colin Kaepernick, and my brothers in arms overseas who are wondering, "what in the hell is going on back there?" I'm sitting in the same chair, in the same apartment that I sat in almost a year ago when I wrote an open letter to Colin Kaepernick. I was hurt when I saw him sitting on the bench during the national anthem, but I'm much more hurt now. Not by him, not by where we're at now with the protests, but by us.
Simply put, it seems like we just hate each other; and that is far more painful to me than any protest, or demonstration, or rally, or tweet. We're told to pick a side, there's a line drawn in the sand "are you with us or against us?" It's just not who we are, or at least who we're supposed to be; we're supposed to be better than that, we're Americans. This doesn't even seem to be about right or wrong, but more about right or left.
Today it feels like this national divide isn't even really about the anthem, or the flag, or kneeling, or sitting, or fists in the air. It's not about President Donald Trump, it's not about Colin Kaepernick, it's not about the military, or even police brutality. It feels like it's about winning. That's what makes America so great, our sheer competitiveness. We're winners, and we won't quit until victory is ours.
We see it in sports everyday, we "live and die" by the outcomes of our teams. That desire to win at all cost is costing us greatly now among our neighbors. This winning mentality seems to have spilled over into an obsession with being right and not willing to admit that maybe, just maybe we were wrong. We repeat mantras to ourselves like, "no matter what I will never ever surrender."
"To deploy overseas, train, live with, fight alongside, and ultimately defend foreigners that you have little in common with is truly a challenging task. But returning home to a country that is so divided, so judgmental, and so hateful of one another is almost as difficult to deal with as burying a fallen comrade."
Nate Boyer on the pulse of America right now
Earlier this week I sat down with a group of five Combat Arms and Special Operations Veterans. The round table discussed our individual feelings on the flag, the anthem, and the players who knelt when it was played. We all had very different takes, but what surprised me most at the end of the discussion was that we all agreed on one thing. Colin Kaepernick and President Trump should be the ones uniting our country together. Wait...what? I know it sounds crazy, but maybe that's exactly what we need to see. Maybe that's how we start to heal. Two men sit in a room and talk, simple as that.
That's how it all started with Colin and I, neither of us knew that kneeling would be the result of our conversation. Colin wanted to sit, I wanted him to stand, and so we found a common ground on a knee alongside his teammates. I believe that progress and real change happens in this world when you reach across the divide, you build a bridge, you swallow your pride, you open your mind, you embrace what you don't understand, and ultimately you surrender.
Now I don't pretend to speak for everyone who fought overseas, many veterans rightfully disagree with my position. But I do feel that I echo the sentiments of most war fighters when I say that what we hope for more than anything right now in America is unity. To deploy overseas, train, live with, fight alongside, and ultimately defend foreigners that you have little in common with is truly a challenging task. But returning home to a country that is so divided, so judgmental, and so hateful of one another is almost as difficult to deal with as burying a fallen comrade. In fact we're still losing our brothers in arms overseas right now and it's hardly mentioned it in the media; but that's OK, we don't risk our lives and sacrifice so much for fanfare or recognition. It's not at all why we do what we do. We do what we do because you are worth it, because we love you.
I would love for those two leaders to have that conversation, but more than anything I just want us to love one another again. One great thing about freedom is that you get to choose everyday how you treat your neighbor. This IS the best country in the world, but we can always do better. I'm laying it all out there because I have to, I swore to defend this land and its people, and I will die trying. I know some people will hate this (we love to hate things these days), and I'll get called a disgrace to the Green Beret once again. But I don't care, the United States means more to me than any of that.
Over the past year I've come across veterans from various walks of life. We may actually be the most diverse sub-culture in the America. Since I myself am a Green Beret, I want to share with you a couple of messages that were sent to me from men in my former unit. One of them is white, and one of them is black:
"Hey brother. At first I was with you on the Kaepernick issue. However, I just stood in formation while one of our brothers was pulled off a plane with our nation's flag draped over the coffin. I had to fight back tears as I saw the pain in the eyes of Staff Sergeant T's wife and family. While I would like to sit here and tell you that I rose above it all, I have to be honest. My heart filled with rage. Rage for anyone who takes for granted the ideals and symbols that we fight and die for."
"Hey Brother, this is J. I spent nearly 18 years in 10th Special Forces Group and wish I had an opportunity to meet a brother like yourself. I just want to say I appreciate your views on this national anthem and flag issue. I love our country, but at the same time I have to take the time to tell my sons to act a certain way out of fear for their lives when dealing with police officers. Most of my neighbors and friends here in MD are law enforcement personnel and will tell you they also have to act a certain way to avoid confrontation and situations that normally don't occur for those that are not of color. Not all officers are bad, the majority I believe are good and poor training is attributed to some of these issues we hear of. I really just want to thank you for your taking the time out to understand and convincing him to take a knee and not sit out on what we have fought for. God Bless You Bro!"
Different backgrounds, different experiences, different colors, but at the end of the day they just want the same basic things for their families.
So please, no more lines in the sand, not at home, not among our people. No more choosing sides, no more "for or against." I believe our Veterans will be called upon to lead the way in healing the world and solving its problems; right now our country needs that more than I can remember. So I'll be here, standing in the radical middle, doing what I can to continue fighting for those that can't fight for themselves. Let's get this thing fixed together, you and me. I love you all with all my heart.
Ex-Green Beret Nate Boyer pens open letter to Trump, Kaepernick, NFL and America
Editor's note: More than a year after penning an open letter to Colin Kaepernick, former Army Green Beret and NFL player Nate Boyer writes another one, this time calling for unity across all sides of the United States. Here's his letter, as told to ESPN San Francisco 49ers reporter Nick Wagoner.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Dear Every Single American,
Every. Single. American. Including President Trump, Colin Kaepernick, and my brothers in arms overseas who are wondering, "what in the hell is going on back there?" I'm sitting in the same chair, in the same apartment that I sat in almost a year ago when I wrote an open letter to Colin Kaepernick. I was hurt when I saw him sitting on the bench during the national anthem, but I'm much more hurt now. Not by him, not by where we're at now with the protests, but by us.
Simply put, it seems like we just hate each other; and that is far more painful to me than any protest, or demonstration, or rally, or tweet. We're told to pick a side, there's a line drawn in the sand "are you with us or against us?" It's just not who we are, or at least who we're supposed to be; we're supposed to be better than that, we're Americans. This doesn't even seem to be about right or wrong, but more about right or left.
Today it feels like this national divide isn't even really about the anthem, or the flag, or kneeling, or sitting, or fists in the air. It's not about President Donald Trump, it's not about Colin Kaepernick, it's not about the military, or even police brutality. It feels like it's about winning. That's what makes America so great, our sheer competitiveness. We're winners, and we won't quit until victory is ours.
We see it in sports everyday, we "live and die" by the outcomes of our teams. That desire to win at all cost is costing us greatly now among our neighbors. This winning mentality seems to have spilled over into an obsession with being right and not willing to admit that maybe, just maybe we were wrong. We repeat mantras to ourselves like, "no matter what I will never ever surrender."
"To deploy overseas, train, live with, fight alongside, and ultimately defend foreigners that you have little in common with is truly a challenging task. But returning home to a country that is so divided, so judgmental, and so hateful of one another is almost as difficult to deal with as burying a fallen comrade."
Nate Boyer on the pulse of America right now
Earlier this week I sat down with a group of five Combat Arms and Special Operations Veterans. The round table discussed our individual feelings on the flag, the anthem, and the players who knelt when it was played. We all had very different takes, but what surprised me most at the end of the discussion was that we all agreed on one thing. Colin Kaepernick and President Trump should be the ones uniting our country together. Wait...what? I know it sounds crazy, but maybe that's exactly what we need to see. Maybe that's how we start to heal. Two men sit in a room and talk, simple as that.
That's how it all started with Colin and I, neither of us knew that kneeling would be the result of our conversation. Colin wanted to sit, I wanted him to stand, and so we found a common ground on a knee alongside his teammates. I believe that progress and real change happens in this world when you reach across the divide, you build a bridge, you swallow your pride, you open your mind, you embrace what you don't understand, and ultimately you surrender.
Now I don't pretend to speak for everyone who fought overseas, many veterans rightfully disagree with my position. But I do feel that I echo the sentiments of most war fighters when I say that what we hope for more than anything right now in America is unity. To deploy overseas, train, live with, fight alongside, and ultimately defend foreigners that you have little in common with is truly a challenging task. But returning home to a country that is so divided, so judgmental, and so hateful of one another is almost as difficult to deal with as burying a fallen comrade. In fact we're still losing our brothers in arms overseas right now and it's hardly mentioned it in the media; but that's OK, we don't risk our lives and sacrifice so much for fanfare or recognition. It's not at all why we do what we do. We do what we do because you are worth it, because we love you.
I would love for those two leaders to have that conversation, but more than anything I just want us to love one another again. One great thing about freedom is that you get to choose everyday how you treat your neighbor. This IS the best country in the world, but we can always do better. I'm laying it all out there because I have to, I swore to defend this land and its people, and I will die trying. I know some people will hate this (we love to hate things these days), and I'll get called a disgrace to the Green Beret once again. But I don't care, the United States means more to me than any of that.
Over the past year I've come across veterans from various walks of life. We may actually be the most diverse sub-culture in the America. Since I myself am a Green Beret, I want to share with you a couple of messages that were sent to me from men in my former unit. One of them is white, and one of them is black:
"Hey brother. At first I was with you on the Kaepernick issue. However, I just stood in formation while one of our brothers was pulled off a plane with our nation's flag draped over the coffin. I had to fight back tears as I saw the pain in the eyes of Staff Sergeant T's wife and family. While I would like to sit here and tell you that I rose above it all, I have to be honest. My heart filled with rage. Rage for anyone who takes for granted the ideals and symbols that we fight and die for."
"Hey Brother, this is J. I spent nearly 18 years in 10th Special Forces Group and wish I had an opportunity to meet a brother like yourself. I just want to say I appreciate your views on this national anthem and flag issue. I love our country, but at the same time I have to take the time to tell my sons to act a certain way out of fear for their lives when dealing with police officers. Most of my neighbors and friends here in MD are law enforcement personnel and will tell you they also have to act a certain way to avoid confrontation and situations that normally don't occur for those that are not of color. Not all officers are bad, the majority I believe are good and poor training is attributed to some of these issues we hear of. I really just want to thank you for your taking the time out to understand and convincing him to take a knee and not sit out on what we have fought for. God Bless You Bro!"
Different backgrounds, different experiences, different colors, but at the end of the day they just want the same basic things for their families.
So please, no more lines in the sand, not at home, not among our people. No more choosing sides, no more "for or against." I believe our Veterans will be called upon to lead the way in healing the world and solving its problems; right now our country needs that more than I can remember. So I'll be here, standing in the radical middle, doing what I can to continue fighting for those that can't fight for themselves. Let's get this thing fixed together, you and me. I love you all with all my heart.
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AussieHunter
Member
I have a passing interest in NFL being from Australia, Green Bay Packers mainly. Why? I enjoy the skill level, but we dont get all the aside off field politics and social stuff in the down under media. I quit following Rugby League down here after the Super League fiasco and all the ensuing bad behavior off field from high paid knuckle heads.
I agree with you how money ruins sport. And then we even let people bet on it and then wonder why games get thrown or passes dropped and kicks missed. Then months later it all comes out about obscene amounts bet on a game.
This is why I hunt. Me challenged by the wilderness. A force of which I have no control over. Where if I want to continue on after failure it is only my inner desires and strength that drives me on.
NB I do agree with Nate Boyer's sentiments from, and in the Australian context. I cant comment on that in the USA being a Aussie. But good luck fellas in sorting it as I would hate to see Australia's greatest ally torn apart from its internal struggles.
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SFC B
Well-known member
The problem is NOT with them protesting (or in anyway thinking there aren't problems in country), the problem is with HOW they are protesting. Given the unthinkable amount of resources and media exposure they have at their whims they could get their points across much more clearly and without alienating a HUGE swath of the country without disrespecting the flag. If the REALLY gave a s#$t they could use just 10% of the NFLs collective salary for the year, somewhere in the neighborhood of $534,000,000, to actually address the plethora of problems that plague the communities they purport to be standing up for. It is all lip service and the hollow whining of spoiled children.
bobbydean
Well-known member
I think the players changed the narrative. Original protester was legit. Didn't agree with him, but he made an honest protest. The idiots that followed did not know what they were doing. They were challenged by our President and made the protest about him. In the process, the players delegitimized the original protest. Made the whole protest asinine!
Do not like Kaepernick. But, he made an honest, but still wrong protest.
The NFL players are idiots for protesting. They are attacking their income base.
Fan for 50 years and I am deeply offended!
Do not like Kaepernick. But, he made an honest, but still wrong protest.
The NFL players are idiots for protesting. They are attacking their income base.
Fan for 50 years and I am deeply offended!
SFC and bobbydean,
I agree for the most part with both of you. Unfortunately, our Commander in Chief appears to lack the leadership skills to maturely challenge the NFL players to take a different approach, and to engage them in order to address the societal changes the wish to happen.
I agree for the most part with both of you. Unfortunately, our Commander in Chief appears to lack the leadership skills to maturely challenge the NFL players to take a different approach, and to engage them in order to address the societal changes the wish to happen.
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,643
I'll preface my comments by saying I don't regularly watch football nor will I in the future. Just not interested. But some people seem to confuse our first amendment freedom of speech that is constitutionally guaranteed to be free from interference or consequence from the government to mean that they have the right to say anything at any time without negative consequences.
Many of our places of employment have policies against certain practices or speech that is harmful to the business because it is offensive to customers. Employees who hurt the company's profits by their actions or speech can expect to be terminated at the employer's discretion. That doesn't mean that the customer's first amendment freedoms are infringed upon.
NFL players or any other professional athletes are employees of the company that pays them to play on their team. Their continued employment is contingent upon fulfilling the terms of their contract. If those terms include policies of what is acceptable behavior then they can expect consequences for violation of those standards. What each player advocates for in his personal time, off the field, outside of the constraints of his contract is not the government nor the owner's business. What he does and says on company time while being payed to represent his team is certainly subject to the owner's censorship.
If this were any other business than professional sports we would think it ridiculous that employees would be allowed to hurt their company to advocate for social change outside of the company at the company's expense.
Would any of us tolerate going to a restaurant and having to listen to the waiter articulate his political views on a particular topic before being allowed to order?
Should I as an unapologetic, pro-life, Christian be allowed to use employer paid working time to argue on the internet with pro-abortion individuals or to proselytize my fellow employees?
As a business owner, should I be expected to allow my employee to drive my customers away by presenting views they find offensive while we are working?
None of us should support or want there to be laws passed that would restrict the player's ability to speak. Neither should we want laws passed that would restrict an employer from offering or withholding employment from an individual who will not abide by the "acceptable behavior" policies the company enacts.
If you are offended by players kneeling, the owners are the ones whom you need to contact. The NFL and all other professional sports is a business. If a business does not make a profit it will either evolve to become profitable or cease to exist.
Trying to enact legislation and governmental suppression or support of speech or beliefs is a two edged sword. The law I support that suppresses speech I find abhorrent, may very well be used against me by others in the future.
Yet, it is very self-indulgent and childish to expect an employer to bear the financial consequences of what his employees advocate for on company time.
Many of our places of employment have policies against certain practices or speech that is harmful to the business because it is offensive to customers. Employees who hurt the company's profits by their actions or speech can expect to be terminated at the employer's discretion. That doesn't mean that the customer's first amendment freedoms are infringed upon.
NFL players or any other professional athletes are employees of the company that pays them to play on their team. Their continued employment is contingent upon fulfilling the terms of their contract. If those terms include policies of what is acceptable behavior then they can expect consequences for violation of those standards. What each player advocates for in his personal time, off the field, outside of the constraints of his contract is not the government nor the owner's business. What he does and says on company time while being payed to represent his team is certainly subject to the owner's censorship.
If this were any other business than professional sports we would think it ridiculous that employees would be allowed to hurt their company to advocate for social change outside of the company at the company's expense.
Would any of us tolerate going to a restaurant and having to listen to the waiter articulate his political views on a particular topic before being allowed to order?
Should I as an unapologetic, pro-life, Christian be allowed to use employer paid working time to argue on the internet with pro-abortion individuals or to proselytize my fellow employees?
As a business owner, should I be expected to allow my employee to drive my customers away by presenting views they find offensive while we are working?
None of us should support or want there to be laws passed that would restrict the player's ability to speak. Neither should we want laws passed that would restrict an employer from offering or withholding employment from an individual who will not abide by the "acceptable behavior" policies the company enacts.
If you are offended by players kneeling, the owners are the ones whom you need to contact. The NFL and all other professional sports is a business. If a business does not make a profit it will either evolve to become profitable or cease to exist.
Trying to enact legislation and governmental suppression or support of speech or beliefs is a two edged sword. The law I support that suppresses speech I find abhorrent, may very well be used against me by others in the future.
Yet, it is very self-indulgent and childish to expect an employer to bear the financial consequences of what his employees advocate for on company time.
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bobbydean
Well-known member
Gerald,
You are correct. If I had on company time said the Hiliary is a travesty, I would be fired. I believe NFL players have the same obligation! They work for their employer. Do it on private time, First amendment applies. Do it on company time in uniform with the National Anthem playing, you are a disgrace and should fired!
You are correct. If I had on company time said the Hiliary is a travesty, I would be fired. I believe NFL players have the same obligation! They work for their employer. Do it on private time, First amendment applies. Do it on company time in uniform with the National Anthem playing, you are a disgrace and should fired!
Zach
Well-known member
You're joking right? Kaep made his protest based on perceptions, not facts. He compounded his ignorance by wearing a Che' Guevara T-shirt and Pig socks. His girlfriend is a huge source of his woes.
His upbringing adds even more irony to this saga...
bobbydean
Well-known member
I think Kaep believed what he was doing. I think he was wrong, I do not think he was very smart. I think he totally disenfranchised himself from his adoptive family.
He was wrong, but he made his choice and lost millions! Was he honest. Yes! I think and he knows!
He was wrong, but he made his choice and lost millions! Was he honest. Yes! I think and he knows!
AussieHunter
Member
From a outsiders perspective I found Andy Stumpf's (ex Navy Seal) opinions enlightening, see Cleared Hot Podcast episode 15 if you are interested
https://clearedhotpodcast.com/episodes/
https://clearedhotpodcast.com/episodes/
BuzzH
Well-known member
Only if there is a policy in place to begin with.
Even though you apparently feel that employees have no rights under the law, they do. When the policies, MOU's, and contract language are negotiated and terms like "should", or "may" are used...there is no expectation of "shall" or "must", from either the employee or employer. If the employer wants policy to reflect must and shall, they have to negotiate that in policy from the start. What they cant do is just arbitrarily start implementing policy standards that don't exist because their bottom line is being impacted. In particular, when that arbitrary policy has not been negotiated by the Union/Management, and when that un-negotiated policy takes punitive action against an employee. Even more problematic when your current policy doesn't say you MUST stand for the anthem.
That's the case here, and why the owners will get their butts handed to them if they try to fire, suspend, or even write up a player for taking a knee during the anthem. Its why the NLRA and NLRB exist, to make sure that contract language is honored. Its also a classic case of why labor laws and labor unions are still needed in 2017.
Rainer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2016
- Messages
- 755
Which, if anyone has been following the NAFTA negotiations(which not a lot are because it gets no coverage in the states). That's what Canada is pushing for. Unions are what saves and grows the middle class. This free speech issue has now gone global with teams in Canada, UK and Europe taking a knee in silent protest
Zach
Well-known member
Thanks for the laugh. Yes, those poor defenseless football players making millions need help defending their 1st amendment rights....
What their representation should be doing is protecting them from long term injuries. Instead they sign contracts with gear companies that pay the most out versus protect them the most from injury.
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