ND HB 1151

[GST]

Who holds them accountable when they turn a public meeting into a private, 1 way conversation where questions can't even been asked and concerns can't be voice in a group setting?

Brock qiote”I've only heard rumors about this. But what I heard is that you guys were being complete assholes, hurling accusations at the game and fish and shouting at them. Perhaps I should call the Game and Fish folks and get their side of the story?”

Please do Brock

Wyatt and I along with about 40 others were at this meeting in Minot

When the meeting began we were told there would be no opportunity to ask questions during the presentation nor would there be any opportunity to ask questions in an open forum setting afterwards we would have to speak privately with about 8 GF employees tgat would be at various places around the large conference hall effectively silencing ang public discussion

One person became upset vocalized his displeasure and left right then

I stood up and politely asked for the GF to reconsider as how we learn is through a question someone else might ask we never thought of or that someone might have a good idea of a path forward the G&F might not have thought of

That request was denied… we sat quietly through the presentation and then split up as directed after and had private conversations no yelling or accusations or nastiness happened

I had a one on one discussion with Casey that was courteous and polite but not in agreement

Wyatt and a couple others spoke with Charlie in a polite conversation as well

When you speak with Charlie ask him these two questions

1. Did he ask Wyatt and the people in that discussion if they would support limited amount of bait allowed?

2. Was he reprimanded for lack of a better word at an advisory meeting again in minot for the tone of his comments by a very polite well spoken person who suggested he might catch more flies with honey than vinegar?

Please let us know the results of that call and conversations

 

[brocksw]

Brock if you wish to travel the path of calling someone a liar as you have in this post please copy and paste a link to where that was done

Credibility is important to some people so please if you can show where I am posting factually incorrect claims I will certainly apologize and correct them

I hope you can engage in this discussion without making it personal that kind of debate does little to move anything forward

1. You and the bill proponents keep telling people that the game and fish allows feeding but not hunting over bait. You have all been informed that they have no regulatory authority over feeding, only the means of take. As stated by the former attorney general. But you guys keep making it sound like the GF is purposefully allowing feeding and only trying to restrict hunters. That's dishonest.

2. You, Wyatt and the bill proponents keep claiming that the change in surveillance (as highlighted in my response to Wyatt further up the thread) is because "the data doesn't fit their agenda". Yet it has repeatedly been explained why they are changing surveillance methods. Other states have also implemented the same rotational testing system to get more granular data. But you just keep repeating your claim. That's dishonest.

3. You blame the CWD outbreak on GF management because of deer populations dating back to the late 90s, but have provided no legible data that supports that claim. I provided a graph that clearly shows they started increasing deer tags to knock that population down starting in 1998. Between 1998 and 2004 they increased deer tags by almost 60k. Yet you still keep repeating that they did nothing back when you were whinging about it in 2003. That's not the truth.

4. Bill proponents lied about humic acid, they misconstrued genetics as a proven solution/cure. Theyve lied about copper being a cure, they've lied about deer not dying from CWD. None of those claims can be validated yet proponents continued to push those claims. That's disengenous.

5. You keep claiming this is about ethics for the GF. Yet I can find no evidence that any of the current leadership at the GF, including Dr. Bahnson, has made any such statement. But you keep repeating it. That's misinformation.

6. Bill proponents keep stating that there's no proof that baiting spreads disease. Yet it has been proven through multiple scientific works that baiting and artificially congregating deer does spread wildlife disease. You are simply focused on the fact that a study has not been performed around CWD in particular, and think that somehow because of that, it means all the other proof that baiting spreads other laterally transmissible diseases is irrelevant. That sure seems disengenous to me.

7. Bill proponents have repeatedly stated that wintering deer herds hanging out in a 100+ acre field is no different than a bait pile. Yet any objective based comparison made through video/photos or personal observations, does not back that claim up and you know it. An ag field is not even close to deer sticking their face in the same tiny spot on the ground day after day after day for months and months and months. Go look at Armans UOA FB page and watch the videos they've posted in the last couple months of deer after deer after deer licking and eating off his sponsored big and Js bait block in a 12" hole in the stained snow, surrounded by feces. Any notion that is the same as an ag field or even a food plot is not only outright disengenous it's embarassing to even say out loud.

That's just what I could come up with in the last few minutes.

 

[GST]

You were posting on every single one of our posts (how you have the time for that I have no clue), going in circles tying in completely unrelated subjects and just blowing up the comment section. I've seen you do that on multiple other FB posts made by anyone who opposes 1151.

Brock you were asking me multiple questions about TB and response protocol as well as other things… I merely were asking you questions as well and sharing the information you asked about

Would you copy and paste a link to and those posts you mention in that last sentence please ?

“ multiple” means several i dont recall many posts in opposition to 1151 on FB outside your org

Say is Land Tawney still in charge at your parent national org BHA? Did he campaign for Biden in Mt as much as he did Obama ?

 

[brocksw]

Brock you were asking me multiple questions about TB and response protocol as well as other things…

Thanks for reminding me Gabe.

If I brought a brucellosis or tuberculosis infected cow to your place and wanted it to share food and water with your cattle...would you let me?

 

[Flatrock]

Welcome to Hunt Talk @GST

Just curious. How many forums have you been banned from? I've heard conflicting numbers.

 

[GST]

What a joke, now its about kids being "too busy" to hunt for the need for bait...come on. Excuse after excuse which tells me that the practice is just slightly more than a little sketchy. When you have to drag kids, kids schedules into it that's just wrong. CWD aside, that you ignore, you need new material.

My oldest nephew runs cross country, does band, carries a 3.8 GPA, works most weekends and still has time to hunt and doesn't need a bait pile to pull that off.

My youngest nephew has a black belt in taekwondo, does band, is now teaching taekwondo to the younger kids, and carries a 4.0 GPA. He also still has time to hunt, he doesn't need a bait pile either.

You're also wrong, HUNTERS absolutely are the "arbiter" of rules and regulations regarding hunting they impose on themselves and others for herd health, etc.

It makes sense to ban deer baiting in ND for a lot more reasons than it does to allow it.

As I said you nor I should dictate what anyone takes from the hunting experience i hope some of the kids that shot their first deer over a bait pile get to experience a dpot and stalk in the badlands and all the awesome things that opens to them

I don’t have time to take kids there so we do what we can with what we have on the wide open flat kinda treeless area we live in

And I absolutely agree….hunters should be the arbiter of rules and regulations that govern hunting ( it is what we are doing through the legislature)

Just not over what someone else has to take from the experience

 

[GST]

Fine, ban both bait piles and food plots.

It makes sense to help control CWD to pluck the low hanging fruit first, by doing things like those that keep deer from congregating over artificial food sources. By doing that, you may be able to delay, or perhaps even avoid, some of the other draconian options being talked about.

But, your agenda is clear, its not about the deer, its about you. YOU want to bait NO MATTER what the science says or how bad an outcome baiting would cause.

Its stunning that some will absolutely not give up a single thing to potentially avoid a real problem later.

Selfish...110% and what I've come to expect, and that's unfortunate.

You see when you do not know someone and make accusations you don’t know that for 10 years I have been asking the NDGF why they are not banning ALL risk activities if CWD is this terrible devastating disease

That would include their OWN “shortstop” or “ intercept” feeding programs they are STILL engaging in

The simple truth is CWD will not devastate a deer herd when the average age of that herd is 3.5 years old

It is why only one dead deer has been found in the wild in TWElVE years with CWD…. Only one

This is about ethics

If you want to ban baiting because of ethics … have that debate… don’t hide behind science

And get ready to have the traditionalist archer argue to ban compound bows

Get ready to have the traditional flintlock shooter argue to ban inlines

And the guy sitting in a stand shooting across a bean field with his lazer range finder custom built 6.5 prc and $3500 electronic bdc scope whacking that big buck that doesn’t even know hes in the county might want to sell that set up
Cause thevguy shooting his dads hand me fown Marlin 30-30 is pissed

 

[brocksw]

And I absolutely agree….hunters should be the arbiter of rules and regulations that govern hunting ( it is what we are doing through the legislature)

You and the baiting crowd do not represent the entire hunting community. You folks are strong arming the legislature through misinformation and outrage. You folks literally talked Rep Anderson into standing on the house floor in front of the whole assembly and using handicapped people as an excuse for passing this bill.

Yet MT, WY, CO, AZ, NM, NV, CA, ID, UTAH, SD, NE, MN, IN, PA, IA, VA, TN, NY (just off the top of my head) all ban baiting and all have opportunity for disabled folks and they all still have deer. I know you're real concerned about them starving to death without you feeding them .

for 10 years I have been asking the NDGF why they are not banning ALL risk activities if CWD is this terrible devastating disease

This is about ethics

Case in point. Just keep pushing that misinformation train, Gabe.

That would include their OWN “shortstop” or “ intercept” feeding programs they are STILL engaging in

More misinformation Gabe. I've explained this to you before. The intercept feeding program has only been used 1 time in a CWD area and it was a heavily vetted decision and still 20 some miles from the nearest CWD hot spot. It was also a case of lessor of two evils. They had a land owner complaining about deer in his feed or hay (can't remember which), so they used the intercept program to pull the deer away from the ranchers stuff.

If I recall correctly, I believe they have since erected barriers to keep deer out of that particular area to avoid the problem in the future, but they had to wait until spring to do so.

Once again you are twisting the truth to suit your agenda.

 

[rogerthat]

You see when you do not know someone and make accusations you don’t know that for 10 years I have been asking the NDGF why they are not banning ALL risk activities if CWD is this terrible devastating disease

That would include their OWN “shortstop” or “ intercept” feeding programs they are STILL engaging in

The simple truth is CWD will not devastate a deer herd when the average age of that herd is 3.5 years old

It is why only one dead deer has been found in the wild in TWElVE years with CWD…. Only one

This is about ethics

If you want to ban baiting because of ethics … have that debate… don’t hide behind science

And get ready to have the traditionalist archer argue to ban compound bows

Get ready to have the traditional flintlock shooter argue to ban inlines

And the guy sitting in a stand shooting across a bean field with his lazer range finder custom built 6.5 prc and $3500 electronic bdc scope whacking that big buck that doesn’t even know hes in the county might want to sell that set up
Cause thevguy shooting his dads hand me fown Marlin 30-30 is pissed

Sounds perfect. Let’s do this. “Put the hunt back in hunting”

 

[wct12]

1. You and the bill proponents keep telling people that the game and fish allows feeding but not hunting over bait. You have all been informed that they have no regulatory authority over feeding, only the means of take. As stated by the former attorney general. But you guys keep making it sound like the GF is purposefully allowing feeding and only trying to restrict hunters. That's dishonest.

2. You, Wyatt and the bill proponents keep claiming that the change in surveillance (as highlighted in my response to Wyatt further up the thread) is because "the data doesn't fit their agenda". Yet it has repeatedly been explained why they are changing surveillance methods. Other states have also implemented the same rotational testing system to get more granular data. But you just keep repeating your claim. That's dishonest.

3. You blame the CWD outbreak on GF management because of deer populations dating back to the late 90s, but have provided no legible data that supports that claim. I provided a graph that clearly shows they started increasing deer tags to knock that population down starting in 1998. Between 1998 and 2004 they increased deer tags by almost 60k. Yet you still keep repeating that they did nothing back when you were whinging about it in 2003. That's not the truth.

4. Bill proponents lied about humic acid, they misconstrued genetics as a proven solution/cure. Theyve lied about copper being a cure, they've lied about deer not dying from CWD. None of those claims can be validated yet proponents continued to push those claims. That's disengenous.

5. You keep claiming this is about ethics for the GF. Yet I can find no evidence that any of the current leadership at the GF, including Dr. Bahnson, has made any such statement. But you keep repeating it. That's misinformation.

6. Bill proponents keep stating that there's no proof that baiting spreads disease. Yet it has been proven through multiple scientific works that baiting and artificially congregating deer does spread wildlife disease. You are simply focused on the fact that a study has not been performed around CWD in particular, and think that somehow because of that, it means all the other proof that baiting spreads other laterally transmissible diseases is irrelevant. That sure seems disengenous to me.

7. Bill proponents have repeatedly stated that wintering deer herds hanging out in a 100+ acre field is no different than a bait pile. Yet any objective based comparison made through video/photos or personal observations, does not back that claim up and you know it. An ag field is not even close to deer sticking their face in the same tiny spot on the ground day after day after day for months and months and months. Go look at Armans UOA FB page and watch the videos they've posted in the last couple months of deer after deer after deer licking and eating off his sponsored big and Js bait block in a 12" hole in the stained snow, surrounded by feces. Any notion that is the same as an ag field or even a food plot is not only outright disengenous it's embarassing to even say out loud.

That's just what I could come up with in the last few minutes.

1. The game and fish has TRIED to overtake the feeding of wildlife twice through the legislature and has failed... both my father and I have said many times they can only regulate means of take..

2. Its just a coincidence that after a 3 year spike in cases in 3f2, the unit with the longest baiting restriction in the state, and a bill that has at least a little bit of traction trying to overturn that, they just decide to less frequently survey the area of the state they have been getting the best data and information back from testing? They already test in multiple other units also, why not continue to monitor this unit every year to see what direction numbers are trending year after year?

3. Overpopulation and disease go hand in hand. So do deer tag numbers and deer count numbers. Instead of taking a proactive stance at something they can actually have a chance to control, getting ahead of the increasing population to keep it in check, they got themselves behind an 8 ball and scrambled to be reactive to huge increases in deer population. The graph you post shows that the game and fish had to give out nearly double the 75,000 tags they say is a sustainable population, as a reactive method.

4. They have provided it as an avenue to look at to possibly be proactive in actually stopping/slowing CWD (universities are at least starting to look into this all.. Texas AM, Wisconsin). Right, wrong, indifferent the private sector is trying to find a cure/stop for this prion disease.. I don't think that any of these are a cure by any means, but there is a possibility one of them is and at least the private sector is looking into things like this.

5.


6. The numbers in 3f2 should at least raise a slight doubt that maybe a baiting restriction doesn't actually long term slow the spread after a huge spike in 10 years down the road from the restriction.

7. Those same deer that are in the 100 acre field are the same ones that are coming into ours and others hay stacks and silage piles that are much smaller then 100 acres (20 yards wide) and fighting over each other to also get to the front of the line. When 350+ deer are doing that then going back to a 100 acre field/tree row to bed.. that congregation in the winter is happening in much smaller feeding areas in farmers hay yards then the 100 acre field you are claiming.

 

[SwaggyD]

Me trying to follow along the decades old bickering from multiple social media platforms coming to hunt talk.

 

[GST]

1. You and the bill proponents keep telling people that the game and fish allows feeding but not hunting over bait. You have all been informed that they have no regulatory authority over feeding, only the means of take. As stated by the former attorney general. But you guys keep making it sound like the GF is purposefully allowing feeding and only trying to restrict hunters. That's dishonest.

2. You, Wyatt and the bill proponents keep claiming that the change in surveillance (as highlighted in my response to Wyatt further up the thread) is because "the data doesn't fit their agenda". Yet it has repeatedly been explained why they are changing surveillance methods. Other states have also implemented the same rotational testing system to get more granular data. But you just keep repeating your claim. That's dishonest.

3. You blame the CWD outbreak on GF management because of deer populations dating back to the late 90s, but have provided no legible data that supports that claim. I provided a graph that clearly shows they started increasing deer tags to knock that population down starting in 1998. Between 1998 and 2004 they increased deer tags by almost 60k. Yet you still keep repeating that they did nothing back when you were whinging about it in 2003. That's not the truth.

4. Bill proponents lied about humic acid, they misconstrued genetics as a proven solution/cure. Theyve lied about copper being a cure, they've lied about deer not dying from CWD. None of those claims can be validated yet proponents continued to push those claims. That's disengenous.

5. You keep claiming this is about ethics for the GF. Yet I can find no evidence that any of the current leadership at the GF, including Dr. Bahnson, has made any such statement. But you keep repeating it. That's misinformation.

6. Bill proponents keep stating that there's no proof that baiting spreads disease. Yet it has been proven through multiple scientific works that baiting and artificially congregating deer does spread wildlife disease. You are simply focused on the fact that a study has not been performed around CWD in particular, and think that somehow because of that, it means all the other proof that baiting spreads other laterally transmissible diseases is irrelevant. That sure seems disengenous to me.

7. Bill proponents have repeatedly stated that wintering deer herds hanging out in a 100+ acre field is no different than a bait pile. Yet any objective based comparison made through video/photos or personal observations, does not back that claim up and you know it. An ag field is not even close to deer sticking their face in the same tiny spot on the ground day after day after day for months and months and months. Go look at Armans UOA FB page and watch the videos they've posted in the last couple months of deer after deer after deer licking and eating off his sponsored big and Js bait block in a 12" hole in the stained snow, surrounded by feces. Any notion that is the same as an ag field or even a food plot is not only outright disengenous it's embarassing to even say out loud.

That's just what I could come up with in the last few minutes.

1.Brock Twice the G&F have tried banning feeding in the legislature in 07-09

They have done nothing since

The G&F work through the legislature to implement laws all the time

If they are notvtrying to ban itvtheyvare allowing it

Why don’t you ever mention the NDG&F’s OWN “ shortstop” feeding programs ???

2.The reason why the GF are moving away from collecting data is an opinion
and the data collected does NOT match the narrative banning hunting over bait reduces spread of cwd and you have 0 studies that prove that

3. Show one single post where i state G&F caused cwd

I share the FACT cwd showed up after years of record deer numbers twice as many as the GF management plan called for one year after a massive die off of deer due to starvation

4 copy and paste the lie about humic acid I have never once made any claim about humic acid

It may or may not be the answer more research will tell so your claims against it are “ disingenuous

5 at the meeting in Minot Casey admitted ethics plays a role so has Jeb Williams the Director

6. I have never once stated baiting does not spread disease or cwd and I challenge you to post statements made and the links to them to anyone that has

7. Actually answer this for once Brock

Have you ever seen 600 deer congregated at a silage pile???

I truly am curious to hear your response because I have at least 200 almost every year

It is not the “ same” as a 5 gal bait pile … it is about 50 times WORSE

Common sense isn’t so common

 

[DFS]

Why not just use the silage pit as your bait station?

 

[GST]

Thanks for reminding me Gabe.

If I brought a brucellosis or tuberculosis infected cow to your place and wanted it to share food and water with your cattle...would you let me?

Um if you did that knowingly you would be in violation of the law

You should learn a bit more Brock before you post

 

[Hunting Wife]

2. Its just a coincidence that after a 3 year spike in cases in 3f2, the unit with the longest baiting restriction in the state, and a bill that has at least a little bit of traction trying to overturn that, they just decide to less frequently survey the area of the state they have been getting the best data and information back from testing? They already test in multiple other units also, why not continue to monitor this unit every year to see what direction numbers are trending year after year?

Because testing at low rates across a broad area reduces your confidence and the ability to draw conclusions. It’s poor sampling design. More intensive sampling over a smaller area gives you more confidence in your results. But there isn’t enough budget to do that everywhere, so you do it on a rolling basis. Just like every other state that does CWD testing. It’s all based on statistics and sampling design, and makes a lot of sense when you are talking about a chronic disease vs an acute one. I’m not sure several people posting here understand the differences between chronic vs acute diseases, based on the nonsensical things being posted.

There are entire books devoted to sampling designs for epidemiological data. This is not being done based on opinion. It’s based on mathematical fact.

4. They have provided it as an avenue to look at to possibly be proactive in actually stopping/slowing CWD (universities are at least starting to look into this all.. Texas AM, Wisconsin). Right, wrong, indifferent the private sector is trying to find a cure/stop for this prion disease.. I don't think that any of these are a cure by any means, but there is a possibility one of them is and at least the private sector is looking into things like this.

The private sector doesn’t give two chits about stopping CWD. All they care about is their bottom line, as evidenced by their long-term propaganda touting magic bullet cures that never pan out, and pre-occupation with fighting any and all regulations trying to stop spread of CWD via cervid commerce and transport. They have dumped millions into pseudo-research that has been repeatedly debunked by myriad entities.

6. The numbers in 3f2 should at least raise a slight doubt that maybe a baiting restriction doesn't actually long term slow the spread after a huge spike in 10 years down the road from the restriction.

Your statements here are misleading. 3F2 has a lower prevalence of CWD currently than 3A1 (4.9% vs 6.2%) which not only has shorter history of CWD but is also adjacent to SK, where baiting has never been banned. So it appears that if a “spike” is occurring, it is occurring in 3A1. Something about your narrative isn’t adding up.

So if CWD does in fact actually start to spike in 3F2 post-baiting, what conclusion would you draw?

 

[Hunting Wife]

Um if you did that knowingly you would be in violation of the law

Why is that illegal again?

 

[GST]

You and the baiting crowd do not represent the entire hunting community. You folks are strong arming the legislature through misinformation and outrage. You folks literally talked Rep Anderson into standing on the house floor in front of the whole assembly and using handicapped people as an excuse for passing this bill.

Yet MT, WY, CO, AZ, NM, NV, CA, ID, UTAH, SD, NE, MN, IN, PA, IA, VA, TN, NY (just off the top of my head) all ban baiting and all have opportunity for disabled folks and they all still have deer. I know you're real concerned about them starving to death without you feeding them .


Case in point. Just keep pushing that misinformation train, Gabe.


More misinformation Gabe. I've explained this to you before. The intercept feeding program has only been used 1 time in a CWD area and it was a heavily vetted decision and still 20 some miles from the nearest CWD hot spot. It was also a case of lessor of two evils. They had a land owner complaining about deer in his feed or hay (can't remember which), so they used the intercept program to pull the deer away from the ranchers stuff.

If I recall correctly, I believe they have since erected barriers to keep deer out of that particular area to avoid the problem in the future, but they had to wait until spring to do so.

Once again you are twisting the truth to suit your agenda.

Brock if baiting deer spreads disease … why would the GF be feeding deer at all

Are they able to determine there is zero positive deer in that area ??

No they can not so by their actions they maybe helping spread cwd

That is undeesputable truth

 

[GST]

Why is that illegal again?

Becsuse tb can be spread from herd to herd like many diseases including cwd

How many deer have been found dead in the wild from CWD in the wild in ND in the last 12 years ?

 

[GST]

Because testing at low rates across a broad area reduces your confidence and the ability to draw conclusions. It’s poor sampling design. More intensive sampling over a smaller area gives you more confidence in your results. But there isn’t enough budget to do that everywhere, so you do it on a rolling basis. Just like every other state that does CWD testing. It’s all based on statistics and sampling design, and makes a lot of sense when you are talking about a chronic disease vs an acute one. I’m not sure several people posting here understand the differences between chronic vs acute diseases, based on the nonsensical things being posted.

There are entire books devoted to sampling designs for epidemiological data. This is not being done based on opinion. It’s based on mathematical fact.


The private sector doesn’t give two chits about stopping CWD. All they care about is their bottom line, as evidenced by their long-term propaganda touting magic bullet cures that never pan out, and pre-occupation with fighting any and all regulations trying to stop spread of CWD via cervid commerce and transport. They have dumped millions into pseudo-research that has been repeatedly debunked by myriad entities.


Your statements here are misleading. 3F2 has a lower prevalence of CWD currently than 3A1 (4.9% vs 6.2%) which not only has shorter history of CWD but is also adjacent to SK, where baiting has never been banned. So it appears that if a “spike” is occurring, it is occurring in 3A1. Something about your narrative isn’t adding up.

So if CWD does in fact actually start to spike in 3F2 post-baiting, what conclusion would you draw?

Um do you know how many dollars you would make if you found a way to stop any prion disease??? Your bottom line would be pretty good

You are aware there are prion diseases that impact livestock right

A cure coukd be expanded to other specieces

Captive deer sell for BIG$ thatbwill drive more research than any gf dept will investv

 

[GST]

Why not just use the silage pit as your bait station?

It is a common ag practice so legally there is that ability

Not everyone has silage piles