MT Shoulder Hunts
- Thread starter ron-ream
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belly-deep
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Is that a real word?
belly-deep
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Are you speculating or is there something in the works?
And I what is the logic behind it?
antlerradar
Well-known member
The problem with opportunity is that she is has an ugly sister called commercialization
antlerradar
Well-known member
I think you may be right. We could also see limited draw or both. The hunting has been declining steadily for as long as I have been hunting in SE Montana. Not saying that you can't still have a good hunt, or that hunting has not improved over the lows of a few years ago but that the long term trend is unsustainable and eventually something will have to change.
In case anyone out there wondered: region 3 shoulder seasons are limited to private property only. The Helena IR (as well as some of FWPs own materials) indicated that a hunter could hunt private ground and state land and BLM land. I've had a few people indicate to me that they similarly believe that only NF is excluded from the shoulder season. That isn't the case. I asked the Region 3 folks who clarified this point for me. I'll be honest, I was pretty disappointed that no one I spoke with at FWP appeared overly concerned about the ambiguity that exists.
Poke 'Em
Well-known member
Seemed clear to me
Not disagreeing with you about what the regs state. The point I was attempting to make is that certain items that found its way into the public domain offer conflicting information and have created some confusion. For instance, here is the line from the IR: "Hunting can only take place on private, BLM or state land except for state wildlife management areas."
Carnage2011
Well-known member
Is this a joke Buzz? If all you can find is a raghorn you may want to open your eyes. With a little effort Montana has some great elk hunting on public land. I laugh at all the Doom and Gloom these days.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Is it a joke when (arguably) the best Montana elk hunter on this site spends 24 days hunting elk and comes up empty? How about 12 full days with a rifle and saw "3 young bulls, all one day, together"...is that a joke?
Sounds more like Colorado, only we have a pathetic 9 day rifle season
Carnage2011
Well-known member
He is a great elk hunter and yes, probably the best on this site. This year was tough due to conditions. But to think that you need to "pray to find a legal raghorn" is crazy. There were some absolutely giant bulls killed in Montana this year, and several of them were on General Units.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Nobody is questioning that there are a few good bull being killed in Montana each year, me included. But, its absolutely a fact, that most of the better bulls are coming from areas with high concentrations of private land. Some of the better bulls are killed when they happen to stray onto public, but they aren't spending a majority of their time on public.
What used to be good hunting on large blocks of public lands in most of SW and Western Montana is a joke. I grew up with, know, knew, and hunted elk with some of the best elk hunters in those areas. Guys that killed elk, including large bulls, every year.
Those same guys, and hunters just like them, are now killing the first legal bull they see.
Sure, a person that has a ton of time to invest playing border patrol on isolated blocks of public in Eastern/SE/Central Montana can get lucky and get a crack at a great bull.
But, hunting NF lands has changed dramatically for the worst in the Western third of Montana. You pass a legal bull in those areas, you're flirting with tag soup as you will likely not get another chance.
I've seen good elk hunting in western Montana, and what we have today aint it...
What used to be good hunting on large blocks of public lands in most of SW and Western Montana is a joke. I grew up with, know, knew, and hunted elk with some of the best elk hunters in those areas. Guys that killed elk, including large bulls, every year.
Those same guys, and hunters just like them, are now killing the first legal bull they see.
Sure, a person that has a ton of time to invest playing border patrol on isolated blocks of public in Eastern/SE/Central Montana can get lucky and get a crack at a great bull.
But, hunting NF lands has changed dramatically for the worst in the Western third of Montana. You pass a legal bull in those areas, you're flirting with tag soup as you will likely not get another chance.
I've seen good elk hunting in western Montana, and what we have today aint it...
huntin24/7
Well-known member
Coming from a guy who's elk hunting consists of bowhunting the breaks a few days to a week every year, are any units in montana with shoulder seasons that are truly beyond carrying capacity for elk? I really don't see how they can be justified in the breaks after the reduction that has already taken place over the last five years or so.
Carnage2011
Well-known member
Ok. I can agree with that. SW and Western Montana are definitely a tough hunt.
mdunc8
Well-known member
It has nothing to do with carrying capacity.
brownbear932008
Well-known member
That is the sad part. I do feel the rifle seasons in Montana are entirely too long it seems. The ranch we hunted in region 5 was ruined by early shoulder hunts this year. All the bow hunters attempted to tag bulls with the bow and when that didn't happen the rifles came out for cows. It ran almost all the elk off the place for the actual rifle hunt. At least for the first week of rifle that we know of. I really hope Montana gets it straight soon I have officially thrown in the towel after 15 or so seasons because of hunting condition/tag cost unless I draw goat or sheep. Sad because I really do enjoy the trips. Of coarse I blame this year on me and my gun for coming home elk less.
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HighWildFree
Well-known member
Not being a smart ass, as I am genuinely curious as to what you think would improve elk hunting in Montana? If you were the Elk Czar, what would you do?
belly-deep
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I'm not sure what/who exactly you are referencing, I must have missed it in another thread.
I will say this. Trophy hunters are hard to please. I'm not going to take a guys success on 350 bulls as the end-all analysis of the current state of elk in MT.
I'm not saying it's great hunting for elk right now, but just because one particular hunter didn't tag out, I'm not going to form an opinion.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I'm not either and if you think I'm using one good elk hunter as a litmus test, you would be wrong as well.
But, what I do know, is that I have multiple friends who aren't even buying the $20 resident elk tag anymore. They're spending $300 and coming to Wyoming and shooting cow elk here rather than throw $20 out the window in Montana.
I also know elk hunters that killed elk every year hunting weekends and maybe a few vacation days...are spending more time and killing less elk now. The average number of days they spend to kill elk has gone way up.
The major drainage my family and I have been hunting since the late 50's...its a shell of what it once was. In the past, there were 200 cow permits issued, now, there are 25 issued for a neighboring unit and if you draw that unit, its valid in the area we hunt.
While I can find bull elk there to kill, I really question whether a person should. Biologically how much sense does it make to kill a bull elk where bull to cow ratio's are in the single digits? How about the fact that I know the country well enough, and the one area I can find bulls consistently, I'm probably looking at bulls that have migrated there from a shit ton of country? Sure, there may be 8-15 bulls in a relatively small area, but that's a majority of the bulls found in probably 2 or 3 major drainages and also some that migrate from an Indian reservation.
Yet, the FWP is still telling me that all 170,000 licensed elk hunters in Montana should be allowed to pound on those elk for 11 weeks?
We wonder why the few elk left are all harboring up on private? We wonder why success rates for bull elk rifle/archery hunters in Montana is in the single digits?
The general season areas in Wyoming, with OTC resident tags, average about 35% success...but we don't pound on elk for 11 weeks straight just to "warm up". We don't hunt elk in August in general areas, and we sure as chit don't hunt them in January and February in general areas either.
Here's where minds will be blown...our general areas here are required to have 18-23 bulls per hundred cows POST SEASON. If they don't, the general season is shortened or spikes are excluded from harvest for a year or two until numbers rebound. Trophy management areas are required to have 40 bulls per 100 cows post harvest. One area I hunt whenever I can draw it...has never been under 50 bulls per 100 cows and I've seen it as high as 67 bulls per 100 cows. I dare you to find any area in Montana that has 67 bulls per 100 cows. I would even be so bold as to say our general units in Wyoming have higher bull to cow ratio's than a majority of MT's limited quota areas.
There's a reason why I can go out and see over 50 bull elk in 3 mornings of scouting on public land here (while the season is open) and get back in time to have lunch with my wife. I'd be lucky to see 50 bulls on public land in 5 years of hard hunting these days in Montana.
The major difference I see between Montana and Wyoming is the willingness to hold shorter seasons and actually manage for an attainable goal.
I'm sorry, but $20 general elk tags and 11 continual weeks, plus shoulder seasons, is a train wreck unless your only "goal" is to keep elk within management objectives. Its not conducive to proper management of the resource at all.
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