MT Elk Shoulder season legislation
- Thread starter Ben Lamb
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Southern Elk
Well-known member
Just sent comments using this link. It takes about 1 minute. Everyone here needs to do it and tell your friends.
Bambistew
Well-known member
Where are all these surplus elk? Thought the wolves ate 'em all.
Just think, elk hunting can get worse in MT... buy hey you will get half a year to fill a tag, you'll probably need it.
Just think, elk hunting can get worse in MT... buy hey you will get half a year to fill a tag, you'll probably need it.
I think the guys that like the half a year to fill a tag are a big part of the problem. It's been posted before, but I think a lot of hunters bitch about the shoulder seasons, then after no bull, off they go. mtmuley
I honestly haven't heard a person outside of h/t complain about them. My office has maybe a dozen hunters that I talk to often, and almost all of them have been hammering these seasons. It's an excuse to not go try and kill a wolf.
I think the weekend hunter, the types that dont write in on things like these, love these seasons and want more of them.
I think the weekend hunter, the types that dont write in on things like these, love these seasons and want more of them.
And they want less wolves, of course. mtmuley
Killergaurd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2017
- Messages
- 85
It's all corrupt politicians and bullshit. Kill all the wolves and don't participate in the shoulder seasons. #*^@#* the ranchers until they participate in a true block management program. We the hunters control the purchase of tags and some funding. We have the power to dictate everything. We won't be heard or considered unless we do something about it.
CUElk
Well-known member
^^^^^ although I probably would have worded it a little different. Being an out of stater, I usually do not comment on Montana issues/legislation. I think the best way I can help is $$$. Where is the best place to donate money to get our voices heard? I would gladly send some money and I am sure many other out of staters would as well. What is going on is a shame as many have said. Even though this is state legislation, it is just like what goes on DC. It is not what you know, it is who you know.
I think most people trust the gov't too much so if there is a season they feel there is enough elk to support it and don't think about the long term impacts. The weekend hunter isn't as in tune as HTers. I haven't hunted MT in a few years, are the post season surveys required? I hate seeing decision get made on season changes based on how a one person/politician feels. I'd rather see it made on data. There should be more requirements for post hunt surveys in my opinion. AK requires them or else you can't hunt that specie the next year.
You’ll think you have all the power, until season setting is completely done in the legislature by Galt et al.
T
tjones
Guest
You haven’t been to any of the FWP season setting meetings have you.? The bulk of the hunters will turn out in favor of more opportunities regardless of the impact on the resource. 6 months and 2 elk just isn’t enough for most hunters.
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Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Although Galt characterizes his House Joint Resolution 18 as "ideas" to be considered, if the Montana House passes the resolution and sends it to FWP agency and Commission, then it will be seen not as ideas, but as mandates.
onpoint
Well-known member
Two things have to happen for the management of Montana's hunting and fishing resources to have a fighting chance - if it's not already too late.
1. A majority of Montanan's have to figure out a way vote for politician's who WILL NOT pull this shit AND will support as well as hold accountable MFWP.
2. Montana hunters and anglers have to step up to the plate and insist that MFWP perform the job it is tasked to do. AND, those hunters and anglers have to decide what they want this stuff to be going forward - as right now, the schizophrenic, apathetic, reactive nature of "us" is as much to blame as any other reason for where we are.
Close to 130000 resident elk licenses were sold in MT last year. Imagine if 10% of those folks really actually for real got involved to the hilt personally. 13000 loud voices. Pipe dream.
The elk management "problem" is only a symptom. Pay attention - only a symptom. There is a lot of various other bad shit going on right now.
As just another internet douche bag who has been immersed in this stuff literally 7 days a week since 1986 - I'm sayin' this is serious as a heart attack if you take hunting and fishing in MT seriously.
I'm done with internet forums - waah, right?
I wish you all luck, you (we) are gonna need it badly.................................
1. A majority of Montanan's have to figure out a way vote for politician's who WILL NOT pull this shit AND will support as well as hold accountable MFWP.
2. Montana hunters and anglers have to step up to the plate and insist that MFWP perform the job it is tasked to do. AND, those hunters and anglers have to decide what they want this stuff to be going forward - as right now, the schizophrenic, apathetic, reactive nature of "us" is as much to blame as any other reason for where we are.
Close to 130000 resident elk licenses were sold in MT last year. Imagine if 10% of those folks really actually for real got involved to the hilt personally. 13000 loud voices. Pipe dream.
The elk management "problem" is only a symptom. Pay attention - only a symptom. There is a lot of various other bad shit going on right now.
As just another internet douche bag who has been immersed in this stuff literally 7 days a week since 1986 - I'm sayin' this is serious as a heart attack if you take hunting and fishing in MT seriously.
I'm done with internet forums - waah, right?
I wish you all luck, you (we) are gonna need it badly.................................
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Sioux33
Well-known member
I sent the BHA link and my legislator got back to me right away. After a couple more email exchanges sharing info discussed on here, she seemed very much on our side. Please reach out to your legislator, it takes 5 minutes!! We need to get this mess turned around right now, speak now or forever hold your peace!!
Maybe somebody should do a podcast on the what/when/why of these shoulder hunts. Since they are now trying to open them up to public land. Maybe somebody with a public land platform who can reach a large audience of hunters and educate them on what’s going. I nominate Buzz as one of the guests.
My experience mirrors yours. When I mentioned on our Elk Talk Live Facebook episodes that I refuse to participate in shoulder seasons, you would have thought I was advocating closing hunting season. No single comment I have made on those weekly (soon to be restarted) sessions has generated more feedback than that statement. A lot of MT hunters sent me messages asking why I refused or what was wrong with making it easier to kill elk if elk are so far over objective.
Reality is, the average Hunt Talker is far more engaged, spends more time studying the policy issues, and that investment of time and research producers and elk hunter who is a bit different than the guy who views elk hunting as a casual endeavor. Those folks haven't done the research to learn how objectives are influenced by politics. They have the interest, or possibly the time, to research how the EMP is supposed to work and how legislators have influenced the EMP by legislation or threats/pressure on FWP. So, they think shoulder seasons are a great idea.
I bet if you had a poll of MT hunters required as part of their license purchase asking if they want to kill more elk and do so at times when it is easier, even if it meant fewer elk, they would overwhelmingly vote in favor of such. Most think FWP would only do this if it was good for the resource, without considering any of the political realities that have owned the issue more and more each year.
The good news is that the policy gets formed, at least to some degree, more so by those who show up and who engage on the issues. Most folks here on Hunt Talk show up and are engaged, giving their voice a bit more consideration than the disengaged person.
If you are a policy maker and you are seeking comments from the random populace of hunters, expect the responses to be very close to what Randy11 has stated here. Just a reality of the situation that shouldn't be ignored in developing strategy to improve elk management in Montana.
Mtnhunter1
Well-known member
MTTW,,,, Very nicely written. Your posts on this subject have hit home with me. The lack of Public elk on public land is truly becoming an understated and ignored issue.
This issue has never been about elk numbers on public land. It has been a political chess match. Ranching for Wildlife getting shot down several decades ago lead to the legislative EMP. The RFW folks are very good at chess. The wolf explosion just added to the issue by driving the elk onto the private grounds. Less hunting pressure, almost zero predation and better feed while living on the private lands and the elk stayed. Once the RFW folks get their way and turn a good portion of Montana into Utah, the over objective EMP will become a forgotten issue. Checkmate! I am hopeful that once this is completed, the MTFWP can then dedicate some real wildlife management to Montana’s big blocks of public lands.
Mtnhunter1
This issue has never been about elk numbers on public land. It has been a political chess match. Ranching for Wildlife getting shot down several decades ago lead to the legislative EMP. The RFW folks are very good at chess. The wolf explosion just added to the issue by driving the elk onto the private grounds. Less hunting pressure, almost zero predation and better feed while living on the private lands and the elk stayed. Once the RFW folks get their way and turn a good portion of Montana into Utah, the over objective EMP will become a forgotten issue. Checkmate! I am hopeful that once this is completed, the MTFWP can then dedicate some real wildlife management to Montana’s big blocks of public lands.
Mtnhunter1
I've been elk hunting in Montana for 40 years give or take. Most hunters would have killed that bull you spoke of. Most hunters don't find a bull. If they don't these days, they then can kill a cow all the way into February because they couldn't or didn't find a bull, thanks to the shoulder seasons. Not gonna change the world I guess, but surely changing Montana elk hunting. mtmuley
BuzzH
Well-known member
I also think MTTW really made a great post as well.
Its the tale of two entirely different situations when talking about Montana elk...those found primarily on private (a vast majority of the elk population), and the few left on public.
I would also add in that the way the MTFWP dealt with over-objective herds for a long time was to take the path of least resistance. In much of the country I hunted, when elk populations started to climb and become "over objective" most of the herd growth was occurring on private. The FWP, took the lazy way out and made cow tags good for the entire units, rather than focusing harvest on private. They had the authority to differentiate between public land elk and private land elk...but IME, they didn't use it hardly ever. So, the public just took to applying for those cow permits and pounded the cows on public land into oblivion. This just made the situation worse, in effect, killing the wrong elk and leaving the elk to continue to expand on private.
Now, a lot of Western Montana is an elk wasteland. Combine the years of 11 week seasons, "cow weeks" in some areas, "youth" being able to kill cows in most of it, increases in predators of all kinds...something just had to give.
What I find troubling is that some people are still blaming the lack of logging and habitat on the current piss poor elk numbers...what a joke. There have been massive burns, continued cutting, and massive cutting in the 80's-90's that surely improved hundreds of thousands of acres of elk habitat. Where I hunted elk in the 80's-2014 the habitat and security is better now than it ever has been. Yet, there are way fewer elk, so few that I refuse to even buy a cheap NR native elk tag. I still see a handful of bulls a year, but it is flat irresponsible to kill one of them. Anyone that would argue they are just helping to "maintain the balance and control the elk population" is a liar. We aren't hunting the surplus elk, bull or cows, we're killing what little is left.
The elk hunting in much of the country I learned to hunt in, is a shell of its former self. To the point that I really don't see how, based on anything scientific, the MFWP is justifying a season at all. Even a very limited season would be hard to justify on public land.
I've posted a lot of the observed elk numbers in region 1 and 2 along with the bull to cow ratio's, cow to calf ratio's, harvest data, etc...its really unbelievable. Those numbers should only lead to one thing, and that's season closures and sleepless nights if you're a biologist.
But, not in Montana, and not with the FWP, its just continue on the path of 11 weeks of OTC, general season elk hammering on public land...then pound on what's left for another 4 months on either side of that.
Even with drastic season cuts, even season closures, it would take a long, long time to get elk back to even reasonable numbers on public land.
There will/should be text books written on how not to manage elk and Montana will be the case study in how to take a robust, awesome public land elk population, and turn it into complete shit.
Its the tale of two entirely different situations when talking about Montana elk...those found primarily on private (a vast majority of the elk population), and the few left on public.
I would also add in that the way the MTFWP dealt with over-objective herds for a long time was to take the path of least resistance. In much of the country I hunted, when elk populations started to climb and become "over objective" most of the herd growth was occurring on private. The FWP, took the lazy way out and made cow tags good for the entire units, rather than focusing harvest on private. They had the authority to differentiate between public land elk and private land elk...but IME, they didn't use it hardly ever. So, the public just took to applying for those cow permits and pounded the cows on public land into oblivion. This just made the situation worse, in effect, killing the wrong elk and leaving the elk to continue to expand on private.
Now, a lot of Western Montana is an elk wasteland. Combine the years of 11 week seasons, "cow weeks" in some areas, "youth" being able to kill cows in most of it, increases in predators of all kinds...something just had to give.
What I find troubling is that some people are still blaming the lack of logging and habitat on the current piss poor elk numbers...what a joke. There have been massive burns, continued cutting, and massive cutting in the 80's-90's that surely improved hundreds of thousands of acres of elk habitat. Where I hunted elk in the 80's-2014 the habitat and security is better now than it ever has been. Yet, there are way fewer elk, so few that I refuse to even buy a cheap NR native elk tag. I still see a handful of bulls a year, but it is flat irresponsible to kill one of them. Anyone that would argue they are just helping to "maintain the balance and control the elk population" is a liar. We aren't hunting the surplus elk, bull or cows, we're killing what little is left.
The elk hunting in much of the country I learned to hunt in, is a shell of its former self. To the point that I really don't see how, based on anything scientific, the MFWP is justifying a season at all. Even a very limited season would be hard to justify on public land.
I've posted a lot of the observed elk numbers in region 1 and 2 along with the bull to cow ratio's, cow to calf ratio's, harvest data, etc...its really unbelievable. Those numbers should only lead to one thing, and that's season closures and sleepless nights if you're a biologist.
But, not in Montana, and not with the FWP, its just continue on the path of 11 weeks of OTC, general season elk hammering on public land...then pound on what's left for another 4 months on either side of that.
Even with drastic season cuts, even season closures, it would take a long, long time to get elk back to even reasonable numbers on public land.
There will/should be text books written on how not to manage elk and Montana will be the case study in how to take a robust, awesome public land elk population, and turn it into complete shit.
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