Did you oppose the late Gardiner and Gallatin elk hunts in the same way?
MT Elk Shoulder season legislation
- Thread starter Ben Lamb
- Start date
Did you oppose the late Gardiner and Gallatin elk hunts in the same way?
BuzzH
Well-known member
Randy,
With no intent to place blame on the RMEF, did anyone in those discussions ever honestly believe this was going to end well? You've been dealing with the FWP for years, same as some of those/us posting on this thread. This wasn't the first time the public was ignored or the first demonstration of the MTFWP flat lying. Certainly not their first demonstration of poorly planned management.
Its been a pattern for a long, long, long time...for me personally, dating back to the mid-80's when mule deer were tanking and the FWP was still allowing unlimited doe harvest for anyone with an A-tag. I was told to "not worry, the deer are there"...even though I watched them circle the drain. The places I hunted mule deer in the 1980's, I haven't seen a live mule deer in 7 years. Was told the same thing with Goats in the Bitterroot, when 75 tags were being issued good for any drainage from hwy12 to the Lost Trail Pass...now down to 1 or 2 tags. Same thing as cow elk being all but wholesale slaughtered in the Bitterroot. Same thing as elk hitting the chit in the Bob, everywhere West of Missoula, etc. Same thing with OTC whitetail b-tags for the Swan and Blackfoot. Same as a vast majority opposing the entire elk B-tag idea...I could go on all day.
There is a pattern of deception, lies, and mismanagement by the MTFWP and IMO, nobody is holding them accountable.
As you're aware, many on this board were already calling what has now happened with shoulder seasons...that wasn't by accident or that we are fortune tellers. Again, the FWP has done nothing here with these shoulder seasons that should be a surprise to anyone. Nor should anyone be surprised, unless they flat weren't paying attention to the complete failed mission of the MTFWP in my hunting lifetime. Its tough to find much of a positive since I began hunting in 1979...with the exception of turkey, lions, wolves and bears, hunting for those has gotten better. The rest is wayyyy worse now than when I first started. Worse for elk, deer, sheep, goats, moose, and pronghorn across the board.
Based on that past history, I had no reason to believe that the FWP was going to all of a sudden grow some management smarts and do this as they said they would.
As a long time Sportsmen in Montana, I will warn those that still find any reason to trust the FWP, that they are going to be only one thing, and that's sorry they ever did. It just amazes me that anyone, from any group, would have had any faith in the MTFWP doing the right thing with shoulder seasons.
With no intent to place blame on the RMEF, did anyone in those discussions ever honestly believe this was going to end well? You've been dealing with the FWP for years, same as some of those/us posting on this thread. This wasn't the first time the public was ignored or the first demonstration of the MTFWP flat lying. Certainly not their first demonstration of poorly planned management.
Its been a pattern for a long, long, long time...for me personally, dating back to the mid-80's when mule deer were tanking and the FWP was still allowing unlimited doe harvest for anyone with an A-tag. I was told to "not worry, the deer are there"...even though I watched them circle the drain. The places I hunted mule deer in the 1980's, I haven't seen a live mule deer in 7 years. Was told the same thing with Goats in the Bitterroot, when 75 tags were being issued good for any drainage from hwy12 to the Lost Trail Pass...now down to 1 or 2 tags. Same thing as cow elk being all but wholesale slaughtered in the Bitterroot. Same thing as elk hitting the chit in the Bob, everywhere West of Missoula, etc. Same thing with OTC whitetail b-tags for the Swan and Blackfoot. Same as a vast majority opposing the entire elk B-tag idea...I could go on all day.
There is a pattern of deception, lies, and mismanagement by the MTFWP and IMO, nobody is holding them accountable.
As you're aware, many on this board were already calling what has now happened with shoulder seasons...that wasn't by accident or that we are fortune tellers. Again, the FWP has done nothing here with these shoulder seasons that should be a surprise to anyone. Nor should anyone be surprised, unless they flat weren't paying attention to the complete failed mission of the MTFWP in my hunting lifetime. Its tough to find much of a positive since I began hunting in 1979...with the exception of turkey, lions, wolves and bears, hunting for those has gotten better. The rest is wayyyy worse now than when I first started. Worse for elk, deer, sheep, goats, moose, and pronghorn across the board.
Based on that past history, I had no reason to believe that the FWP was going to all of a sudden grow some management smarts and do this as they said they would.
As a long time Sportsmen in Montana, I will warn those that still find any reason to trust the FWP, that they are going to be only one thing, and that's sorry they ever did. It just amazes me that anyone, from any group, would have had any faith in the MTFWP doing the right thing with shoulder seasons.
Buzz, to your questions, I can only speak for me personally.
Did I consider some of the things you mention when putting my support to the idea of a limited experiment known as shoulder seasons? Yeah, to some degree. I also considered a lot of other points that needed to be weighed at that time.
Did I think FWP would so quickly hit the accelerator to expand shoulder seasons? Not at all.
I had "hoped" FWP would hold to what was represented. These kind of decisions require analyzing all alternatives; including the alternative of doing nothing, the risks of things going south as they did with shoulder seasons, the benefits of potential improvement if the experiment were successful, the long-term benefit of helping one of your largest conservation partners in Montana, helping some really good people who are in a political hotbox, and a host of other issues.
I was disappointed to see FWP go full speed ahead on shoulder seasons, given it was represented as a limited experiment. And in spite of the criticisms levied, I would weigh in with the same support, given the same facts and political context of that time.
I still hold there are some great people at FWP. There are some who are busting their hump to do what is right for hunters and the resource, exposing themselves to serious employment jeopardy in doing so. I wish these FWP employees had more protections from the political process. Fact is, they don't and the legislature knows it. Unfortunately, the political process FWP is exposed to is a huge challenge.
I wish things had turned out differently on shoulder seasons, for so many different reasons. But, it did not. Those who might have offered support for those seasons as a limited scope experiment are left to be criticized and second-guessed for that support. Comes with the territory.
I know the RMEF folks involved in the daily decisions. They are great folks who have the best interest of elk and hunters in mind. If I was building a team of folks to be advocates for the long-term interest of elk, the staff of RMEF would be my first draft choices. I have watched them work in some very challenging situations and every time they done what they think is best for elk, other wildlife, their habitat, and our hunting heritage.
FWP, RMEF, and other groups have to work together, no matter the past events or the situation of today or the challenges ahead. It will be a tough road, going forward. I wish I had answers, but I don't.
Did I consider some of the things you mention when putting my support to the idea of a limited experiment known as shoulder seasons? Yeah, to some degree. I also considered a lot of other points that needed to be weighed at that time.
Did I think FWP would so quickly hit the accelerator to expand shoulder seasons? Not at all.
I had "hoped" FWP would hold to what was represented. These kind of decisions require analyzing all alternatives; including the alternative of doing nothing, the risks of things going south as they did with shoulder seasons, the benefits of potential improvement if the experiment were successful, the long-term benefit of helping one of your largest conservation partners in Montana, helping some really good people who are in a political hotbox, and a host of other issues.
I was disappointed to see FWP go full speed ahead on shoulder seasons, given it was represented as a limited experiment. And in spite of the criticisms levied, I would weigh in with the same support, given the same facts and political context of that time.
I still hold there are some great people at FWP. There are some who are busting their hump to do what is right for hunters and the resource, exposing themselves to serious employment jeopardy in doing so. I wish these FWP employees had more protections from the political process. Fact is, they don't and the legislature knows it. Unfortunately, the political process FWP is exposed to is a huge challenge.
I wish things had turned out differently on shoulder seasons, for so many different reasons. But, it did not. Those who might have offered support for those seasons as a limited scope experiment are left to be criticized and second-guessed for that support. Comes with the territory.
I know the RMEF folks involved in the daily decisions. They are great folks who have the best interest of elk and hunters in mind. If I was building a team of folks to be advocates for the long-term interest of elk, the staff of RMEF would be my first draft choices. I have watched them work in some very challenging situations and every time they done what they think is best for elk, other wildlife, their habitat, and our hunting heritage.
FWP, RMEF, and other groups have to work together, no matter the past events or the situation of today or the challenges ahead. It will be a tough road, going forward. I wish I had answers, but I don't.
Big Foot
Active member
RMEF and others have gotten it wrong and need to right these wrongs. I often offer staunch support of RMEF and others on issues when they have it right. The "decision makers" were very secretive about the shoulder seasons when they were first rolled out as though a backroom agreement had been struck with FWP to make all better for sportsman. When inquiring about how this made sense, those questioned acted like it was all a big secret. This arrangement has and will continue to rain down chit on MT sportsman for years to come in spite of the collective wisdom by the decision makers involved. I do not claim to understand all of the detail involved in shoulder season program support. I am not alone in thinking a huge mistake was made by many organizations supporting the original program. Greater explanation of how we got here would be appreciated as it still does not make sense to many.
For me, it took watching FWP lie and wiggle about the 216” world record ram they picked up, then denied the existence of and lied about for over a year before manufacturing their giant freezer it was lost in lie, to realize just what crooked shitbags they are.
They are still lying about and hiding multiples 200”+ rams they picked up on the island. That freezer must be capital Y yuge
They are still lying about and hiding multiples 200”+ rams they picked up on the island. That freezer must be capital Y yuge
If you think this was some back room deal, you are again uninformed. You might want to go back and read the threads here on Hunt Talk from that period. The issues was scrutinized, criticized, and aired out here in great detail. The testimony given by supporters was live on the legislative video feeds, if you care to go pull those up and watch them. Hardly decisions/support made under the cover of darkness. Those supporting FWP at that time took their beatings then and the beatings continue. Knock yourself out.
Given all your rearview mirror critique, I hope you are traveling to Helena on a regular basis and doing more than just giving your opinions on a website. I hope you are personally visiting with legislators. I hope you are rallying hunters to the cause and helping them lobby their legislators.. I hope you are working with organizations that are engaged in the process. You obviously have passion for the topic. I hope you apply that passion in a manner and time that will make a difference for the benefit of elk, other wildlife, their habitat, and our hunting heritage.
If you care to attend, here is an event tonight that expands on how to be effective in the political process. Hope to see you there - https://www.backcountryhunters.org/montana_state_engaging_with_elected_officials
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
The shoulder hunts are a Band-Aid being used to treat a pancreatic cancer. You can hate that Band-Aid all you want, it won't cure the cancer.
Wylie Gault's a Band-Aid salesman. Richard Stuker is like a truckload of cigarettes and asbestos. Gault, Stuker and Zolnikov are just 3 stooges in a pool of many looking to make public land elk hunting even worse than it is today.
There was nearly 90% public opposition to the shoulder seasons a few years ago. FWP decided to push forward anyway, just a gentle toe in the water test with very specific criteria on doing so. Hah! We are so screwed.
I took a ride with a landowner and shot a cow on a shoulder hunt over New years. Saw more elk in one day than I've seen in close to 10 years on public land in MT while hunting. That is not an exaggeration.
I've got meat in the freezer - every meal is a good reminder that the good old days are gone and never coming back unless you've got connections or a fat wallet.
Wylie Gault's a Band-Aid salesman. Richard Stuker is like a truckload of cigarettes and asbestos. Gault, Stuker and Zolnikov are just 3 stooges in a pool of many looking to make public land elk hunting even worse than it is today.
There was nearly 90% public opposition to the shoulder seasons a few years ago. FWP decided to push forward anyway, just a gentle toe in the water test with very specific criteria on doing so. Hah! We are so screwed.
I took a ride with a landowner and shot a cow on a shoulder hunt over New years. Saw more elk in one day than I've seen in close to 10 years on public land in MT while hunting. That is not an exaggeration.
I've got meat in the freezer - every meal is a good reminder that the good old days are gone and never coming back unless you've got connections or a fat wallet.
Big Foot
Active member
See you in 30!
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Of all the bickering going on in this thread, this post is the best IMO. Well said.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
Yep, a lot of truth there.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
One of the other threads asked what does one get out of this forum? This, this thread and the 100s of others like it, are what I get. Good discussion on an issue that interests me, but one which i have no real info on. I didn't know RMEF supported it, I didn't realize that MT EMP where put objectives so low, or that it was driven by landowners, or that there was so much public opposition to them, etc.
In the age of social media, has RMEF considered drawing attention to various opportunities like this, with suggestions of what a supportive comment for the interest of elk might look like, what positions RMEF is taking and why, and where appropriate (season setting meetings for example) have a representative present?
I may be wrong, but from observation RMEF is often absent from engaging in the type of activities you suggested Bigfoot do.
I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but I know I’m not the only one that is sometimes confused by what is viewed as an unwillingness to ‘rock the boat’, which like you just said in your marriage advice podcast, peace can be better than justice, but the clock is ticking on the elk situation being irreversible, if we aren’t there now.
Maybe I just perceive RMEF as silent out of ignorance, but I’ve looked pretty hard without finding much as it pertains to the topic of this discussion, and when I ask about it, I usually get a similar response as what you told Bigfoot, which is to advocate on your own. Or the other one, ‘we are a habitat org’.
I just find it surprising that with what has happened in Montana in the last 15 years, that there hasn’t been an absolute raucous about elk. I’d rather not beat up RMEF for something from the past, if I can support them in something meaningful right now. But guys like me and maybe Bigfoot need that laid out a little clearer for us in what that is and what it looks like because we aren’t seeing it. The stockgrower’s ass’n is playing to win and win they are.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Greenhorn:
That sums it up! What happened?
1. A seemingly ambiguous Elk Management Plan with skewed tolerance-based objective numbers.
2. Senator Debbie Barrett's HB 42 enacted to mandate FWP manage elk populations to numbers at or below the skewed objective numbers.
3. Elk behavioral evolution putting elk on lower lands, farms and ranches in greater numbers.
4. Shoulder season "toe-in-the-water" pilot program opposed by so many of us, but implemented.
5. A legislature of Sen Barrett's party and agreeing with the objectives and the need for shoulder seasons, a Governor of the other political party who took a helicopter ride with Galt and then strongly endorsed the shoulder seasons plan, then a weak FWP administration which quickly bowed to the political pressure.
6. A shoulder seasons pilot plan which became a widespread massive elk reduction program, not "toe-in-the-water" but fully emerged.
7. Now Galt's proposed HB 497 to codify more than two elk per year per hunter and HJ 18, the resolution to FWP to issue more than two elk tags per hunter, to allow "collective" hunter harvest, to establish elk hunting in excess of 6 months per year, liberal opportunities to "slaughter" elk.
I consider the Montana Legislature, the Governor, and FWP to have egregiously violated the "trust" in having been entrusted to protect, preserve, and manage a valuable Montana resource.
That sums it up! What happened?
1. A seemingly ambiguous Elk Management Plan with skewed tolerance-based objective numbers.
2. Senator Debbie Barrett's HB 42 enacted to mandate FWP manage elk populations to numbers at or below the skewed objective numbers.
3. Elk behavioral evolution putting elk on lower lands, farms and ranches in greater numbers.
4. Shoulder season "toe-in-the-water" pilot program opposed by so many of us, but implemented.
5. A legislature of Sen Barrett's party and agreeing with the objectives and the need for shoulder seasons, a Governor of the other political party who took a helicopter ride with Galt and then strongly endorsed the shoulder seasons plan, then a weak FWP administration which quickly bowed to the political pressure.
6. A shoulder seasons pilot plan which became a widespread massive elk reduction program, not "toe-in-the-water" but fully emerged.
7. Now Galt's proposed HB 497 to codify more than two elk per year per hunter and HJ 18, the resolution to FWP to issue more than two elk tags per hunter, to allow "collective" hunter harvest, to establish elk hunting in excess of 6 months per year, liberal opportunities to "slaughter" elk.
I consider the Montana Legislature, the Governor, and FWP to have egregiously violated the "trust" in having been entrusted to protect, preserve, and manage a valuable Montana resource.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
Just another 'Tanny beating it to death, but I am curious why a new elk plan would be desirable? Is there not a chunk of the current elk plan that is being wholly ignored that would rectify a fair bit of the "over objective" classification? That being inaccessible elk on private land not being counted toward the sum of elk within a district.
This is why I have no sympathy for FWP when people say that they're legally obligated to manage for those numbers. They aren't using all the tools they have available to them.
This thread is a classic example of navel gazing rather than gearing up to fight the battle at hand.
New EMP is needed, regardless of what we think of the old one, and probably precisely because of what we think of the old one. 15 year old elk plans that aren't being implemented mean that we don't have a freaking elk management plan - just a reaction whenever the legislature tries to make them flinch. If we don't do this now, then we sentence our elk to slaughter, and we will continue to treat elk hunting in Montana like a plague, rather than a heritage.
I encourage everyone to listen to the hearing from yesterday, especially the sponsor's closing on HJ 18.
T
tjones
Guest
FWP not following or just picking and choosing parts of the EMP is nothing new. Its been going on since the damn thing was written. No one noticed when things were good. Public land elk numbers start declining where they once were good and hunters wake up.
Way back when we started working on the harboring issue and forcing FWP to use page 55 in HD270 I emailed every single sportsmen group in the state along with MWF as we were looking for support and also other areas in the state where it might apply. Not one single response. At the time the Bitterroot was in serious decline and FWP and their foot on the gas to kill elk. Things were good in most of the rest of the state at the time. Its hard to get hunters involved until they personally feel the pain.
I don't disagree, but reveling in the past is a good way to ensure that nothing will happen in the future.
Or we just let the legislature have their way with it all, and we'll end up with no elk except for on private lands, for sale to the highest bidder.
T
tjones
Guest
I don't think anyone is reveling in the past. My point is hunters always seem to be reacting and always a few years too late. Playing defense 90% of the time is a sure way to lose.
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