Mountain lions "losing fear of man"?

peterk1234 said:
More humans. More humans moved to rural areas since covid. More humans going outside since covid. More encounters with wildlife.
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The bulk of El Dorado County has actually remained relatively static in terms of human population/development--the Highway 50 corridor has an increase, particularly around longstanding Sacramento bedroom communities like Cameron Park and El Dorado Hills, but the outlying areas are still pretty much as they were when I was a kid in the '80s, except more pastureland is now cultivated for grapes. And back then, pre-Prop 117, lion sightings were exceedingly rare, especially in broad daylight and around residential housing, but in those days, external pressure was still put on the cats by hound pursuit. That all changed starting in 1990, and the lion's behavior changed in short order as well. Now we're looking at 30 generations of lions that have become totally habituated to human proximity, with no negative repercussions. Historically the mountain lion had two non-human natural competitors--grizzlies and wolves--but both of those species have been absent from Cali for a century (yes, I know, wolves are now trickling in from up north--speaking in generalities here). So now we're dealing with an absolutely unhindered, unchallenged apex predator with no reason to fear competition of any kind. The escalation in sightings has little to do with runaway development or Covid or habitat loss--it's more about an emotionally derived special status that forbids even non-lethal human conditioning pressure, let alone actual comprehensive management protocols.
 
As I recall, at the time of Reagan’s moratorium, cougars were mostly gone. I think estimates were <500 at the time. Newsome — father and son — on the other hand, pushed it into law via the animal rights angle.
 
Jim/Wa said:
As I recall, at the time of Reagan’s moratorium, cougars were mostly gone. I think estimates were <500 at the time. Newsome — father and son — on the other hand, pushed it into law via the animal rights angle.
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Until very recently, there was really no scientifically rigorous way to get an accurate read on lion numbers. It is true that there was concern about the health and size of the population in the late '60s and early '70s, even from sportsman's groups, which is why the moratorium was enacted in the first place. A state biologist named Dick Weaver made the first attempt at a comprehensive count around the time the moratorium was enacted, using hounds and primitive tracking collars, but nobody really had much of a clue what the actual number was. A mid-70s guesstimate by another state biologist posited 2,400, but by today's standards, the methodology used to arrive at that number isn't considered reliable. By the time the moratorium ended in 1986, the commonly accepted figure amongst the preponderance of objective researchers was around 4,500--although a paper presented by two impartial biologists from UC Davis in that year unequivocally stated that, "Biologists do not know how many lions are in California." https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/...ticle/1023/&path_info=Fitzhugh_Biological.pdf
The most recent state lion biologist in Cali with any real credibility, Justin Dellinger, believes that the number remains around 4,500. Meanwhile, a six-year intensive study in Montana relying on hound pursuit and subsequent DNA collection puts that state's number at 5-7,000--and also asserts that this is within 25% of the historic pre-European-contact population. Which would certainly indicate that California's present number, after nearly six decades of de facto kill moratorium and three-plus decades of near-total protection, should be regarded as baseline normal, if not more than the state's available habitat can justifiably support.
 
Malcolm Brooks said:
Historically the mountain lion had two non-human natural competitors--grizzlies and wolves--but both of those species have been absent from Cali for a century (yes, I know, wolves are now trickling in from up north--speaking in generalities here).
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First off, I am very sorry for your loss.

I was going to ask, do you think wolves establishing themselves in California naturally could have an impact on lion population/interactions with humans? Up here in Canada, despite having a much larger population of cougars, our human-cat interactions are much less, and a big driving factor in that is wolves killing cats/driving them into more remote habitat through competition. Establishing a balance between predators may do more to check the problem than any human intervention ever could.

But then you open up all the problems that come with wolves in the States. Complex issue for sure.
 
A study outside Missoula on a winter elk kill by a lion showed a lone wolf coming into the kill to feed. The wolf was skittish, ate quick and left, tail tucked. Lions have been known to kill wolves, but doubtfully when they are in a pack. A lone wolf stands little chance against a lion. A lion can escape a wolf pack by climbing a tree or cliff, just like they evade hounds. I dont see wolves being an issue for lions besides stealing their food or competing for resources. Is it really that common for wolves to kill lions and vice versa?

Double edge sword in CA as our deer herds are still way down and struggling. Wolves, lions, too many people/cars/houses, and not enough deer/elk.
 
Moserkr said:
A study outside Missoula on a winter elk kill by a lion showed a lone wolf coming into the kill to feed. The wolf was skittish, ate quick and left, tail tucked. Lions have been known to kill wolves, but doubtfully when they are in a pack. A lone wolf stands little chance against a lion. A lion can escape a wolf pack by climbing a tree or cliff, just like they evade hounds. I dont see wolves being an issue for lions besides stealing their food or competing for resources. Is it really that common for wolves to kill lions and vice versa?

Double edge sword in CA as our deer herds are still way down and struggling. Wolves, lions, too many people/cars/houses, and not enough deer/elk.
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They kill kittens quite regularly here, which is more what I was talking about.
 
Moserkr said:
A study outside Missoula on a winter elk kill by a lion showed a lone wolf coming into the kill to feed. The wolf was skittish, ate quick and left, tail tucked. Lions have been known to kill wolves, but doubtfully when they are in a pack. A lone wolf stands little chance against a lion. A lion can escape a wolf pack by climbing a tree or cliff, just like they evade hounds. I dont see wolves being an issue for lions besides stealing their food or competing for resources. Is it really that common for wolves to kill lions and vice versa?

Double edge sword in CA as our deer herds are still way down and struggling. Wolves, lions, too many people/cars/houses, and not enough deer/elk.
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I talked to a warden east of Grand Teton NP. He said that there was a noticeable decline in lions in many areas around there since the return of wolves. He suspected that many kittens were being killed.
 
I wasnt even thinking about kittens!! Just adults. Well that makes a lot of sense that canines would impact lion populations then. Thanks for making me see the light lol.

I still feel bad for CA's deer population getting hammered constantly by current predators. Now I wonder if wolves would actually help deer by helping regulate lion populations. We have had confirmed sightings of wolves in the sierras around tahoe but no documented packs that Im aware of.
 
Malcolm Brooks said:
Until very recently, there was really no scientifically rigorous way to get an accurate read on lion numbers. It is true that there was concern about the health and size of the population in the late '60s and early '70s, even from sportsman's groups, which is why the moratorium was enacted in the first place. A state biologist named Dick Weaver made the first attempt at a comprehensive count around the time the moratorium was enacted, using hounds and primitive tracking collars, but nobody really had much of a clue what the actual number was. A mid-70s guesstimate by another state biologist posited 2,400, but by today's standards, the methodology used to arrive at that number isn't considered reliable. By the time the moratorium ended in 1986, the commonly accepted figure amongst the preponderance of objective researchers was around 4,500--although a paper presented by two impartial biologists from UC Davis in that year unequivocally stated that, "Biologists do not know how many lions are in California." https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/...ticle/1023/&path_info=Fitzhugh_Biological.pdf
The most recent state lion biologist in Cali with any real credibility, Justin Dellinger, believes that the number remains around 4,500. Meanwhile, a six-year intensive study in Montana relying on hound pursuit and subsequent DNA collection puts that state's number at 5-7,000--and also asserts that this is within 25% of the historic pre-European-contact population. Which would certainly indicate that California's present number, after nearly six decades of de facto kill moratorium and three-plus decades of near-total protection, should be regarded as baseline normal, if not more than the state's available habitat can justifiably support.
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Both Don Koch and Dr Bob Timm were telling me the same things in 1990-1991 before the ballot initiative. I was doing research for an article I hoped to sell to BUGLE. I never completed it.

BTW - Dick weaver was a tough one. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-10-15-sp-3373-story.html
 
QuazyQuinton said:
I think it's pretty hard to argue that an individual animal's behavior is changed by a lack of hunting. I think it's reasonable to assume that an increasing animal population leads to more frequent encounters with humans out "in the wild" and also leads to more animals moving to live in close proximity to humans, thus increasing the chances of conflict. Also, don't forget that news travels faster in the Facebook age, so people know (some things) more than they used to.

Lots of moving parts if one was to try to nail down cause and effect.

QQ
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Drive through Yellowstone and stop to look at elk, then stop to look at them in the wild and tell me there is no difference.
 
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