More elk in Idaho
- Thread starter mtmiller
- Start date
MarvB
Well-known member
Tom I didn't SAY that they WERE breeding the elk to reds, it was mentioned that there was CONCERN about the "escapees" being hybridized and mating with wild elk thus fuggin up the genetics....something likely exhibited by a few posters on this thread.....1pointer and I were just pondering the "what" they might be breeding them to.
JB it was the barrel that was blue, the tag was yellow if you'll recall
And the fence was red.....
.
JB it was the barrel that was blue, the tag was yellow if you'll recall
And the fence was red.....
.
Tom
New member
Then what? Then you don't give a damn if they are out there. (7 words to spare, three now.)
MarvB
Well-known member
I think that most on this board (going out on a limb here?) DO give a damn that they are out there, in fact, would have rather have seen them not be ANYWHERE! "Most" of us are of the opinion that elk/deer aren't livestock.
I don't really give a rip (the flip-flop sheep hunter for example) how people want to hunt as long as it is within the parameters of the law....truly whatever floats your boat in my opinion. That being said, when providing the way for someone to hunt (farmed elk for example) has the potential to impact everyone else (as in this case should problems arise with the escaped elk) I think it bears a lot closer scrutiny.
I'm waaaaay over my 20 word limit and lunch sounds better at this point....carry on
I don't really give a rip (the flip-flop sheep hunter for example) how people want to hunt as long as it is within the parameters of the law....truly whatever floats your boat in my opinion. That being said, when providing the way for someone to hunt (farmed elk for example) has the potential to impact everyone else (as in this case should problems arise with the escaped elk) I think it bears a lot closer scrutiny.
I'm waaaaay over my 20 word limit and lunch sounds better at this point....carry on
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Tom, It's natural for ungulates confined unnatural, in pens to come down with all types of diseases ( TB, cronic waste, among others). Tests for these, on elk type animals as of yet arn't conclusive, so you don't know wheather or not they carry any of the dreaded stuff or not. The only way to test for some diseases is to kill the animal and test the tissue in the brain.
Game farmers have animals die all the time with simptoms that could possible be one or the other. Most game farmers I knew would dig a big hole and get ride of the dead animal ASAP. That way they'd save the rest of their herd.
As for it being scare tatics, There is lots of documented cases where game farms have come down with the worst of the diseases. Over the hill from where I live, a captive herd of elk had cronic waste, (bad shit) the Fish and game came in, burnt all the elk in incenarators, and hauled the dirt off the field where the elk lived. At the expense of hunters. Several cases of TB have broke out on game farms and all the elk, and every other animal in the area had to be killed. even mice. Because of one animal being able to touch noses through fences. Not even double fences will stop TB because mice can carry it.
I'm way over the 20 words but alot of people are missing the point on how serious this thing is. Game Farms need to be outlawed.
Tom
New member
Shoots straight. CWD is in the wild too and they don't clean up as well there.
Asside:
Then what? Then you don't give a damn if they are out there.
19.....18......17....16..15.....14...13.12...11.10...9...8....7 words left that time.
(7 words to spare, three now.)
6...5.......4..3..
Asside:
Then what? Then you don't give a damn if they are out there.
19.....18......17....16..15.....14...13.12...11.10...9...8....7 words left that time.
(7 words to spare, three now.)
6...5.......4..3..
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Miller, why not rename this thread, "Idaho's Captive Elk fiasco & indecisive solution...Texas to blame?"
Tom, quit while your only this far behind.
280, quit before Buzz stuffs you in his backpack.
Marv, cross a red stag with Tom's bigazzed roast beef & have a Red Bull.
Tom, quit while your only this far behind.
280, quit before Buzz stuffs you in his backpack.
Marv, cross a red stag with Tom's bigazzed roast beef & have a Red Bull.
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Your right Tom, and it came off a game farm in Colorado. Pandora's box.
Tom, you always have a way of making my case. We still don't have a case of cronic waste in the wild Yet.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
....from the Idaho Statesman
Our View: Elk escape shouldn't tarnish industry
Edition Date: 09-13-2006
The largest escape of domestic elk in Idaho history raises questions about the industry — and its relationship to wild game and Idaho values.
We shouldn't overreact to the point of hurting the entire elk industry. Idaho leaders should closely examine the difference between elk farms and hunting ranches to see that laws adequately regulate both — and make sure Idahoans are comfortable with the new business of canned hunts.
Idaho is home to about 78 ranches and 6,500 head of domestic elk, compared with hundreds of thousands of wild elk.
Most ranches raise elk for antlers used for medicinal purposes and for meat for restaurants. Elk also are sold between ranchers. A few ranches, and it's unclear how many, allow private hunts that are not regulated by the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, which means there are no seasons or limits.
All elk ranchers are required to follow a set of rules and regulations formulated by industry members and the Idaho Department of Agriculture, the state agency that oversees the private elk breeders just as it does the cattle industry. Rules include regular testing for diseases, tracking the buying and selling of each animal and making sure elk are tagged so if they do escape, they can be distinguished from wild game.
Raising domestic elk is legal business here, as in many Western states. It is illegal to import hybrids or red deer. No Idaho domestic elk has ever been tested positive for chronic wasting disease, brucellosis or tuberculosis.
So what is everyone afraid of?
Right now it's one man's antics, which raise unfair questions about the ranching industry. The more appropriate questions should challenge the business of private hunting ranches and why one man has gotten so many breaks from state officials.
Rex Rammell owns a hunting preserve near Rexburg where elk are bred for large antlers and canned hunts for rich people willing to pay thousands for a guaranteed kill. At least 70 and up to 160 of his elk escaped last month, according to the Department of Agriculture. No one knows for sure because it is unclear whether his elk are wearing required ear tags that must be visible from 150 feet away. Rammell has had hefty fines assessed in the past for failing to apply tags because, as he has said, the tags ruin a hunting experience.
Inspectors also have said he has improperly maintained fencing and protested a law requiring testing for the incurable, devastating CWD.
Rammell said Tuesday he doesn't know how many elk he has on his ranch because the ranch offers so much cover. Hunting ranches usually are large, making the elk more elusive and harder to monitor and control.
This makes us nervous and suspicious. Gov. Jim Risch must have had the same reaction, because he authorized the immediate destruction of all the escaped animals.
Idaho's wildlife has been spared CWD — unlike in Wyoming, Montana and Utah — and we should take extraordinary measures against this disease.
Rammell, meanwhile, has defied the rules and challenged officials and successfully lobbied the Legislature to forgive some $750,000 in fines for repeated violations.
The escape of his elk has caused a furor and, given Idahoans' innate love of nature, that's understandable. State officials and wildlife lovers should act on the moment:
• The Department of Agriculture should fully investigate Rammell and any other rancher that comes under suspicion.
• Lawmakers should be comfortable that current laws for elk ranches also apply for canned hunting ranches.
• And we should ask ourselves whether canned hunts — banned in Wyoming and Montana — fit with the values of Idaho.
Our View: Elk escape shouldn't tarnish industry
Edition Date: 09-13-2006
The largest escape of domestic elk in Idaho history raises questions about the industry — and its relationship to wild game and Idaho values.
We shouldn't overreact to the point of hurting the entire elk industry. Idaho leaders should closely examine the difference between elk farms and hunting ranches to see that laws adequately regulate both — and make sure Idahoans are comfortable with the new business of canned hunts.
Idaho is home to about 78 ranches and 6,500 head of domestic elk, compared with hundreds of thousands of wild elk.
Most ranches raise elk for antlers used for medicinal purposes and for meat for restaurants. Elk also are sold between ranchers. A few ranches, and it's unclear how many, allow private hunts that are not regulated by the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, which means there are no seasons or limits.
All elk ranchers are required to follow a set of rules and regulations formulated by industry members and the Idaho Department of Agriculture, the state agency that oversees the private elk breeders just as it does the cattle industry. Rules include regular testing for diseases, tracking the buying and selling of each animal and making sure elk are tagged so if they do escape, they can be distinguished from wild game.
Raising domestic elk is legal business here, as in many Western states. It is illegal to import hybrids or red deer. No Idaho domestic elk has ever been tested positive for chronic wasting disease, brucellosis or tuberculosis.
So what is everyone afraid of?
Right now it's one man's antics, which raise unfair questions about the ranching industry. The more appropriate questions should challenge the business of private hunting ranches and why one man has gotten so many breaks from state officials.
Rex Rammell owns a hunting preserve near Rexburg where elk are bred for large antlers and canned hunts for rich people willing to pay thousands for a guaranteed kill. At least 70 and up to 160 of his elk escaped last month, according to the Department of Agriculture. No one knows for sure because it is unclear whether his elk are wearing required ear tags that must be visible from 150 feet away. Rammell has had hefty fines assessed in the past for failing to apply tags because, as he has said, the tags ruin a hunting experience.
Inspectors also have said he has improperly maintained fencing and protested a law requiring testing for the incurable, devastating CWD.
Rammell said Tuesday he doesn't know how many elk he has on his ranch because the ranch offers so much cover. Hunting ranches usually are large, making the elk more elusive and harder to monitor and control.
This makes us nervous and suspicious. Gov. Jim Risch must have had the same reaction, because he authorized the immediate destruction of all the escaped animals.
Idaho's wildlife has been spared CWD — unlike in Wyoming, Montana and Utah — and we should take extraordinary measures against this disease.
Rammell, meanwhile, has defied the rules and challenged officials and successfully lobbied the Legislature to forgive some $750,000 in fines for repeated violations.
The escape of his elk has caused a furor and, given Idahoans' innate love of nature, that's understandable. State officials and wildlife lovers should act on the moment:
• The Department of Agriculture should fully investigate Rammell and any other rancher that comes under suspicion.
• Lawmakers should be comfortable that current laws for elk ranches also apply for canned hunting ranches.
• And we should ask ourselves whether canned hunts — banned in Wyoming and Montana — fit with the values of Idaho.
Tom
New member
"It is illegal to import hybrids or red deer. No Idaho domestic elk has ever been tested positive for chronic wasting disease, brucellosis or tuberculosis."
What's with the red stag conjecture above?
Shoots straight, I think you're a bit confusing in your statement about CWD in the wild and where it comes from. I put "CWD in the wild" into google.com and 280,000 hits come up. It is in the wild. We do have cases in the wild in lots of states and in Canada. Basically, your statement above is dead wrong and pretty idiotic. I'm sure its not what you meant to type, right?
It being first found in deer in a Co. research facility studying wild deer, does not mean that the disease came from game farms. That reasoning is like saying disease comes from hospitals, because a hospital is where they find it. That's not the way it works.
What's with the red stag conjecture above?
Shoots straight, I think you're a bit confusing in your statement about CWD in the wild and where it comes from. I put "CWD in the wild" into google.com and 280,000 hits come up. It is in the wild. We do have cases in the wild in lots of states and in Canada. Basically, your statement above is dead wrong and pretty idiotic. I'm sure its not what you meant to type, right?
It being first found in deer in a Co. research facility studying wild deer, does not mean that the disease came from game farms. That reasoning is like saying disease comes from hospitals, because a hospital is where they find it. That's not the way it works.
seems most of the info out there does tend to point to game farms as the origin of the problem.
because thats where it was discovered first, one could possibly assume its the origin......and be wrong.
until we know, we dont know.(that's a tomism)
because thats where it was discovered first, one could possibly assume its the origin......and be wrong.
until we know, we dont know.(that's a tomism)
MarvB
Well-known member
Wasn't that Yogi Berra......
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Tomass,
Your the idiot, I said it's not in the wild in Montana yet!. Comprahenda.
OK simple now, Red deer genes may not show up for several generations in elk as Red deer. Also they don't test all genetic's on the animals in the farms.
TB, and CRW don't show up on elk and deer. you have to kill the animal to testfor it. The test they use for Tb is one that used oncattle although they think they have a test coming that will work on elk. The test they now use is 30% reliable.
Game farmers have been using red deer genetics to inhance the crowing effect on domestic elk. Sperm is easy to bring into Idaho.
Cronic waste came off a game farm, doesn't matter if it's was run by the gov or not. Duh! Proves that wild ungulates penned will come up with some wild dieases.
Read a couple of the hits you had while googling cronic waste. You won't find articles depecting it being found in the wild in montana.
Your the idiot, I said it's not in the wild in Montana yet!. Comprahenda.
OK simple now, Red deer genes may not show up for several generations in elk as Red deer. Also they don't test all genetic's on the animals in the farms.
TB, and CRW don't show up on elk and deer. you have to kill the animal to testfor it. The test they use for Tb is one that used oncattle although they think they have a test coming that will work on elk. The test they now use is 30% reliable.
Game farmers have been using red deer genetics to inhance the crowing effect on domestic elk. Sperm is easy to bring into Idaho.
Cronic waste came off a game farm, doesn't matter if it's was run by the gov or not. Duh! Proves that wild ungulates penned will come up with some wild dieases.
Read a couple of the hits you had while googling cronic waste. You won't find articles depecting it being found in the wild in montana.
Tom
New member
We means Montana, I didn't realize that's what you meant.
"Proves that wild ungulates penned will come up with some wild dieases."
At least they find out and get rid of then, eh? I don't think they invented diseases like this in a research pen, that's where they discovered it though.
I agree, they come up with it in the wild too. They pretty much think the human form of it CJD is spontaneously generated, doesn't matter if the humans are penned or not, eh?
"Proves that wild ungulates penned will come up with some wild dieases."
At least they find out and get rid of then, eh? I don't think they invented diseases like this in a research pen, that's where they discovered it though.
I agree, they come up with it in the wild too. They pretty much think the human form of it CJD is spontaneously generated, doesn't matter if the humans are penned or not, eh?
Ithaca 37
New member
Gov. Jim Risch and Idaho Department of Fish and Game director Steve Huffaker will make an announcement at 11:30 a.m. Friday in the governor’s office about the escaped domestic elk in eastern Idaho.
Huffaker told the Idaho Statesman Tuesday he was considering opening up a depredation hunt in the area surrounding the ranch to kill the farm-raised elk that escaped in August from the Chief Joseph Elk Ranch near Tetonia. The Idaho Department of Fish and Game planned to open the hunt to hunters who had already obtained tags to hunt elk in the 44-square-mile area northeast of Tetonia.
Hunters who had applied for special depredation tags also might be eligible for the tags, Huffaker said Tuesday. But before he would open such a hunt he wanted to develop a plan for communicating to hunters where they could hunt legally without trespassing on private landowners’ land.
More than 100 elk escaped from the elk ranch owned by Rex Rammell. Rammell has recaptured about 40 of the animals, including 10 trophy bulls he would sell to hunters for about $6,000 to shoot on his 160-acre reserve. Fish and Game officials have killed 14 so far.
Officials from Fish and Game and Idaho Department of Agriculture are worried the escaped elk could spread diseases such as tuberculosis, brucellosis and chronic wasting disease, the elk version of mad cow disease. They also fear Rammell’s elk may breed with wild elk and pass on undesirable genetic characteristics.
Agriculture officials said this week some of Rammell’s animals did not have tags as required for identification, a charge Rammell denied.
Rammell said his elk are disease-free and genetically identical to the wild elk of the Yellowstone area. He has been critical of Risch’s order Sept. 7 to exterminate the escaped animals because they are his private property. Rammell said today he has strong support from eastern Idaho residents opposed to Risch and Fish and Game’s actions.
“If they think they’re going to win back support from the public they’re sadly mistaken,” Rammell said.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060914/IDOUT/60914019
Huffaker told the Idaho Statesman Tuesday he was considering opening up a depredation hunt in the area surrounding the ranch to kill the farm-raised elk that escaped in August from the Chief Joseph Elk Ranch near Tetonia. The Idaho Department of Fish and Game planned to open the hunt to hunters who had already obtained tags to hunt elk in the 44-square-mile area northeast of Tetonia.
Hunters who had applied for special depredation tags also might be eligible for the tags, Huffaker said Tuesday. But before he would open such a hunt he wanted to develop a plan for communicating to hunters where they could hunt legally without trespassing on private landowners’ land.
More than 100 elk escaped from the elk ranch owned by Rex Rammell. Rammell has recaptured about 40 of the animals, including 10 trophy bulls he would sell to hunters for about $6,000 to shoot on his 160-acre reserve. Fish and Game officials have killed 14 so far.
Officials from Fish and Game and Idaho Department of Agriculture are worried the escaped elk could spread diseases such as tuberculosis, brucellosis and chronic wasting disease, the elk version of mad cow disease. They also fear Rammell’s elk may breed with wild elk and pass on undesirable genetic characteristics.
Agriculture officials said this week some of Rammell’s animals did not have tags as required for identification, a charge Rammell denied.
Rammell said his elk are disease-free and genetically identical to the wild elk of the Yellowstone area. He has been critical of Risch’s order Sept. 7 to exterminate the escaped animals because they are his private property. Rammell said today he has strong support from eastern Idaho residents opposed to Risch and Fish and Game’s actions.
“If they think they’re going to win back support from the public they’re sadly mistaken,” Rammell said.
http://www.idahostatesman.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060914/IDOUT/60914019
