More elk in Idaho

[mtmiller]

I heard about this the other day, but forgot to look into it further.

Thoughts...comments????

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/news/top_story/topStory_9_8_06.cfm

 

[Tom]

The sooner they get a lot of people to surround them and get them, the sooner they will get them. Kind of a truism there, eh? I say round up a big posse and get after em. Beer for the horses and whiskey for the men, right? Do it just like Willie.

But, then again, maybe those teams just want some elk meat and they already know its no problem, so they aren't getting after them. We need more info. than that news clip to really decide what's best.

 

[mtmiller]

But, then again, maybe those teams just want some elk meat and they already know its no problem, so they aren't getting after them. We need more info. than that news clip to really decide what's best.

I guess you are saying there should be no concerns with captive deer/elk pertaining to CWD and if some get out every now and then, it is only a benefit to the wild population? Heck, doesn't cost as much to a grow an elk that way.

 

[noharleyyet]

I wonder if IF&G will send a bill to Rammell. 21 shooters & spotters plus vets, pilots and 'others' sounds like a significant expenditure.

 

[Tom]

No, I didn't say that, I'd say that's jumping to conclusions without the data. I'm speculating that they are not after those elk with a vengence because maybe they know that herd that escaped was a good herd of elk. If not, you'd think they would be more agressive. If they were diseased elk and the owner let them out, wouldn't the Fish & Game people be more concerned. I don't think it costs less to grow an elk inside the fence, either, it probably costs more, because they get better food. That would be my speculation there.

The article didn't say anything about disease there, your paranoia is coming up with that part, right? They ought to go interview that ranch owner, that would be a revealing interview on that issue. He just lost a lot of money? Did somebody cut his fence or what? Remember those poachers up there last year, they wiped out a bunch of elk. Maybe the Idaho fish and game is afraid of that. Heck, its all speculation, there's no info. on any of that in the news clip.

 

[mtmiller]

1. I'm speculating that they are not after those elk with a vengence because maybe they know that herd that escaped was a good herd of elk. If not, you'd think they would be more agressive.

2. If they were diseased elk and the owner let them out, wouldn't the Fish & Game people be more concerned.

3. I don't think it costs less to grow an elk inside the fence, either, it probably costs more, because they get better food. That would be my speculation there.

4. The article didn't say anything about disease there, your paranoia is coming up with that part, right?

5. They ought to go interview that ranch owner, that would be a revealing interview on that issue.

6. He just lost a lot of money?

7. Did somebody cut his fence or what? Remember those poachers up there last year, they wiped out a bunch of elk. Maybe the Idaho fish and game is afraid of that. Heck, its all speculation, there's no info. on any of that in the news clip.

1. Sounds to me like they are being pretty aggressive. Choppers, vets, shooters, spotters....

2. I didn't see a question mark on that one. Thank god, because that would be up there with your best ones.

3. That might make one of your Top-10 (well Top-50) comments.

4. Google cwd "captive deer" "captive elk"

5. Another, earlier article I read, mentioned the owner was contacted, but would not give an interview. I would also like to hear his story.

6. Yep he lost some big $$$. Don't worry, the sportsmen of Idaho are looking to lose a pile of dollars as well.

7. Never mind, I don't understand your question/comment anyway.

 

[mtmiller]

Tom, this will answer a couple of your questions. Man do I feel sorry for Mr. Rammel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14715522/

 

[280]

Perfect chance for Keith Warren or any Texan to kill an elk OUTSIDE a high fence. In a situtation like this you need to bring on experts, Keith could leave is elk bugle behind and use a grain sack as a call. Keith could lead the charge with his trusty Texans, at his side, following their natural instincts they would be drawn to those ear tagged elk like white on rice

 

[noharleyyet]

Tom, this will answer a couple of your questions. Man do I feel sorry for Mr. Rammel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14715522/

Looks like he's been thumbing his nose at the various regulatory agencies for some time.

 

[Tom]

That article says 100 elk, the post here says 75. I'm sure the rest of the story is spot on in its accuracy though, eh?

With the helicopter and all the teams, are they getting any of them? That's a good point, they're being pretty aggressive there.

It sounds like they ought to fine him because he didn't tag them correctly, but the second article mtmiller just gave doesn't even say they've decided to do that. What a mess of crap that news is.

Why do the neighbors just report the elk and not shoot them? I think because they are not much of a threat. Don't they have a vested interest in killing them? What kind of threat is it, if you see one and you can't shoot it, not much is what I'm thinking?

The article says someone accused him of inadequate fence, then he was found to have adequate fence. It says he was fined $750000 for inadequate tagging, then he convinced the legislature it was an error.

Nothing in this news seems any good. Crappy news reports, innacurate, incomplete, just to stir up more crap like this thread. That's my complaint. Get the news straight at least on an issue like this.

You ever hear of science mtmiller? Getting the facts straight, that's basic to progress of knowledge. You ever hear of a legal system where they are innocent until proven guilty? It seems to me from the readings here, that would be exactly where Mr. Rammel is.

I'm not defending him, I'm just giving you some thoughts and comments like you asked for. My basic complaint is that this news really hasn't brought out all the facts yet. I guess it will eventually.

 

[280]

Huffaker asked hunters to avoid adding to the problem by heading for eastern Idaho with hopes of shooting an elk.

My question is what HUNTER would really want one?

 

[Nemont]

You ever hear of science mtmiller?

Yeah Craig,
You ever take any science classes while earning your degree? I can't imagine when a biologist would have "heard" of science.

Great question Tom|oo |oo


Nemont

 

[noharleyyet]

Perfect chance for Keith Warren or any Texan to kill an elk OUTSIDE a high fence. In a situtation like this you need to bring on experts, Keith could leave is elk bugle behind and use a grain sack as a call. Keith could lead the charge with his trusty Texans, at his side, following their natural instincts they would be drawn to those ear tagged elk like white on rice

....wail hail, rat here's da solution. How's that for healthy discourse & science? Works for me 280...I'll shoot em & Miller can test em...save the taxpayers money.

Miller, lets hear the benefit of some of that higher scientific education. You asked for comments & thoughts but evidently didn't like ol Toms. Are you angry at the Idaho pols who have let this guy skate or Tom for his eloquence?

 

[1_pointer]

miller's just mad because I won't meet him in SE Idaho for some whacking...elk whacking! What if they lose their ear tags? How do they tell them from wild elk? Sounds like a bad deal. I'm not a fan of the 'farming' of wildlife species endemic to an area.

Nemont- I think I heard of science in a 'colage' class I took near Anaconda, MT one summer....

 

[Tom]

The metal tags they have are hard, very hard to get out. The plastic tags only rarely come out, I've heard. Its double tagging to get the 150 yard visible tag and the really good to stay in metal tag.

They never figured out where CWD comes from right? Its still showing up in the wild, out in the middle of nowhere, isn't it? They just found it first in that Colorado facility, as I understand it, because its a scientific facility and they were trying to figure out what happened.

I guess I should do another google on it and see if that changed. Do you know mtmiller, has that changed?

Here's something new to me about it, its been transfered from mule deer to primates.
Reference:
Interspecies Transmission of Chronic Wasting Disease Prions to Squirrel Monkeys (Saimiri sciureus)
Richard F. Marsh,1, Anthony E. Kincaid,2 Richard A. Bessen,3 and Jason C. Bartz4*
Department of Animal Health and Biomedical Sciences, University of Wisconsin, Madison 53706,1 Department of Physical Therapy,2 Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology, Creighton University, Omaha, Nebraska 68178,4 Department of Veterinary Molecular Biology, Montana State University, Bozeman, Montana 597183

Received 3 May 2005/ Accepted 10 August 2005

Chronic wasting disease (CWD) is an emerging prion disease of deer and elk. The risk of CWD transmission to humans following exposure to CWD-infected tissues is unknown. To assess the susceptibility of nonhuman primates to CWD, two squirrel monkeys were inoculated with brain tissue from a CWD-infected mule deer. The CWD-inoculated squirrel monkeys developed a progressive neurodegenerative disease and were euthanized at 31 and 34 months postinfection. Brain tissue from the CWD-infected squirrel monkeys contained the abnormal isoform of the prion protein, PrP-res, and displayed spongiform degeneration. This is the first reported transmission of CWD to primates.

 

[Elkhunter]

By Cory Hatch
September 9, 2006

Aided by a helicopter, seven teams of Idaho wildlife officers were scheduled Saturday morning to track down and kill roughly 160 domestic elk that escaped from a ranch near Tetonia last month.

On Friday afternoon, officials in Idaho held off on Gov. Jim Risch’s request to allow a wider depredation hunt on the animals. But Idaho Fish and Game Director Steve Mealey could call for such an action in the next few days if the weekend’s hunt is unsuccessful.

“Conservation officers and Idaho Department of Agriculture officers will begin at dawn tomorrow to take as many of the domestic Cervidae as possible,” Idaho Fish and Game spokesman Ed Mitchell said Friday.

Mitchell said he referred to the animals as Cervidae, the scientific family that includes elk, deer, moose, and caribou, because the animals could be hybrids of more than one species. “We have very low confidence in their genetic purity,” he said.

The Wyoming Game and Fish Department on Friday also authorized its officers to kill the animals on sight, but has not organized a formal hunt because of personnel shortages due to the arrival of hunting season, agency spokeswoman Robin Kepple said.

More than 200 elk broke through a fence at the 2,000-acre Chief Joseph hunter’s reserve, roughly 10 miles from Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks, in early August. Idaho officials learned about the escape after the ranch’s neighbors reported the animals in their yards Aug. 14.

About 40 of the fugitive elk have been captured after the discovery of their escape.

Officials across Idaho and Wyoming have raised concerns about possible diseases the domestic elk might carry such as brucellosis, chronic wasting disease, liver flukes and tuberculosis.

But a bigger concern is the animals will ruin the genetic purity of the region’s wild elk. If the domestic animals carry non-native genes and breed with native elk, the native elk population could change their foraging habits or become more susceptible to disease, Kepple said.

Even if the animals don’t breed outside the herd, the probable hybrids might out-compete native elk, pushing them out of their native range. “We don’t want to jeopardize our wild population with unknowns,” Kepple said.

So far, Yellowstone and Grand Teton officials have refrained from ordering park rangers to kill the escaped elk. Yellowstone spokesman Al Nash said that could change as more information comes in about the animals. “The question about a genetic impact is of paramount importance,” he said.

Grand Teton spokeswoman Joan Anzelmo said it would be “quite disastrous” if the elk were to intermingle.

Mitchell said Idaho Fish and Game takes the escaped elk and the possible consequences “as serious as a heart attack.”

In 2002, Rex Rammell, owner of the elk, successfully lobbied the Idaho Legislature to drop a $750,000 fine that was imposed after he failed to properly tag the animals with blaze orange tags.

For hunters, both state and private, the lack of blaze orange tags could make the elk difficult to differentiate from wild elk. Officials said that some domestic elk have orange tags, but most have silver tags that are difficult to spot.

Rammell did not return calls for comment.

Private hunters in Idaho who mistake the domestic elk for wild elk will not lose their tag and may keep hunting, but they are encouraged to report the kill to Idaho Fish and Game officers, Mitchell said. “They need to notify us immediately and they can go on with their hunt,” he said.

When and if Idaho officials shoot the domestic elk, Mitchell said the animals would be salvaged, tested for disease and then frozen. “When the tests are back, and if [the domestic elk] are fine, they will go to charities in the area,” Mitchell said about the meat.

http://www.jacksonholenews.com/article.php?art_id=887

 

[Moosie]

The plastic tags only rarely come out,

You got yours out of your Texas Cow/bull hunt though, right ? But it was dead, like the elk, when they shoot them in the free grass they eat when the elk eat grass out of fence in the wild. Wild life is pretty and elk eat grass and grass doesn't always grow in fences and it's free... How much does it take to grow a Elk not raised in a fence ? Take pictures.. bye.

 

[TheTone]

Its a mess and a big concern is all I know. I hope it might lead to this state growing a set of boys and getting tough and shutting this crap down. I'm doubting it will come to that be we can dream can't we.

Tom, are you honestly as stupid as you come across as being?

 

[Oak]

Hard to feel sorry for this jackass. I can't believe anyone can defend him, either.

8 escaped domesticated elk killed by Idaho game officers

By CHRISTOPHER SMITH
Associated Press Writer

BOISE, Idaho (AP) -- State game officers Monday shot and killed eight elk they said had escaped from a private hunting reserve and posed a threat to the genetic purity of wild herds roaming the Yellowstone National Park area on the Idaho-Wyoming border.

The five cow and three young elk were the first domesticated elk killed under an emergency order issued by Idaho Gov. Jim Risch on Thursday, authorizing state agents to destroy the estimated 75 to 160 farm-raised elk that escaped in mid-August from the Chief Joseph's hunter's reserve near Rexburg. The private hunting reserve, owned by veterinarian Rex Rammell, charges clients $5,995 to shoot one of the trophy-sized domesticated elk.

More than two dozen officers using aerial spotters had been unable to locate any of the escaped elk since the emergency harvest began Saturday. Idaho Fish and Game Department Director Steve Huffaker blamed the early lack of success on efforts by Rammell and his associates to keep the elk away from state shooters.

"We learned over the weekend the owner of these animals has been out there on four-wheelers hazing them and running them back into the trees, so we just left Sunday to let things settle down," Huffaker told The Associated Press Monday. "We went back in there with a small crew this morning and they were able to kill eight and spot several more."

Rammell did not return a message from The Associated Press left at his ranch Monday. In a weekend interview, his wife told the AP they had been working to lure the elk back into the private hunting enclosure with oats, grain and molasses before state officers could shoot them.

"We've been up there and we've been chasing them trying to get them in and trying to bait them in," said Lynda Rammell. "If they would have given us more time, we would have gotten more of them in."

Huffaker acknowledged tensions were high between the Rammells and the state officers ordered to kill as many of Rammell's elk they can find to avoid potential introduction of disease and crossbreeding with wild elk.

"We'll do everything we can to avoid any confrontation we can, but this is a very serious problem and we still have to discharge our duty," he said.

It was impossible for officers using binoculars and rifle scopes to see the small aluminum ear tags that identified the five cow elk as livestock before they were shot Monday, Huffaker said. The three young elk had no ear tags, but authorities believe they were calves or yearlings of the cow elk.

Meat from the animals was being processed and will be donated to local charities. Tissue and blood samples from the eight elk were being analyzed to determine if the animals carried any communicable disease and whether they were genetic hybrids. Huffaker said his agency has heard reports that some of Rammell's elk may have been crossbred with red deer in an effort to grow larger antlers.

"If these things amount to genetic pollution of wild elk, that's the worst case scenario," said Huffaker. "The breeding season for elk is right now, so it's probably already occurring."

The Idaho Fish and Game Commission on Friday gave Huffaker permission to authorize an emergency public hunt for the escaped elk on or before Oct. 1 if he determines that state officers have been unable to destroy significant numbers of the escaped domesticated elk. That hunt would be open to local private landowners and licensed hunters holding valid tags and permits for the area.

Huffaker said Monday it's too early to say whether such a public depredation hunt will be necessary.

 

[Ithaca 37]

But Idaho Fish and Game Director Steve Mealey could call for such an action in the next few days if the weekend’s hunt is unsuccessful.

Mealey was fired about 6 years ago. Thankfully.