More Discounted Non-residents licenses for Montana

[sacountry]

Are elk really over objective in Montana?

Who believes the MTFWP's estimates on population?

What about the areas in Montana that used to have lots of good elk hunting, great elk populations, and now have very few elk?

Macro management stopped working in Montana, like 20 years ago.

It's been said/reported that the FWP target for our elk is 92,000. At a 10 year average of 130,000 (based on my reviewing the 2011-2021 data on FWPs website), one can make the argument that we're 40,000 over the objective. I'm not totally sure where the 175,000 number comes from, but I think it stems from either counting all the elk or just the elk that's publicly accessible. Either way, it's critical to come to agreement on which elk we're counting.

Today, we have exponentially more hunters than we did 2011 and yet the herd continues to grow. With more hunters, one would think the herd wouldn't stand a chance, but what we can see in, and infer from, the data is that throwing more licenses at the herd only migrates the herd. That speaks to your 3rd point above.

This is an article from our local paper written this summer. While i disagree with its conclusions, it illustrates that things are at a tipping point....
https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2022/jul/24/its-time-fwp-follow-law-elk-management/#:~:text=FWP's%20goal%20is%2092%2C000%20elk,that%20grows%20worse%20every%20year.

 

[Straight Arrow]

It's been said/reported that the FWP target for our elk is 92,000.

Colorado sustains almost FOUR times that number. Can someone explain the difference in habitat and in management?!

 

[Ben Lamb]

Colorado sustains almost FOUR times that number. Can someone explain the difference in habitat and in management?!

CO purchases landowner tolerance with privatized licenses.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

CO purchases landowner tolerance with privatized licenses.

@BuzzH Is the Bob complex just over hunting?

I'm not going to even pretend like I know what from what, but it seems like the Bob should be ~ flat tops in CO. Why aren't there 20-30k elk running around in those mountains.

 

[Ben Lamb]

@BuzzH Is the Bob complex just over hunting?

I'm not going to even pretend like I know what from what, but it seems like the Bob should be ~ flat tops in CO. Why aren't there 20-30k elk running around in those mountains.

I'm not Buzz, but the Bob is suffering from a complex situation relative to habitat, overhunting & impacts from predation.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I'm not Buzz,

Just adding a second perspective

the Bob is suffering from a complex situation relative to habitat, overhunting & impacts from predation.

is the Bob default poor habitat compared to Yellowstone, does it just have a baseline low carrying capacity?

 

[sacountry]

I'm not Buzz, but the Bob is suffering from a complex situation relative to habitat, overhunting & impacts from predation.

From my perspective living on the doorstep to the Bob, I know more people are headed into the Bob unoufitted on their own horses in an attempt to get away from the crowds. With fewer elk available on public land this trend will continue.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Just adding a second perspective


is the Bob default poor habitat compared to Yellowstone, does it just have a baseline low carrying capacity?

The Bob, and a lot of R1 in general, is suffering from a lack of winter range as well as habitat degradation and cyclic issues relative to wildfire & beetle kill, as well as loss of nutritional content in what is available due to drought, etc. You are also dealing with the issue of the fires of 1910 and the ensuing open lands that created large elk herds in the first place. Read some of the journals of hunters in R1 back in the 1800's. There wasn't all that much for game back then.

You can't really compare the Bob and Yellowstone - two different ecosystems.

 

[BuzzH]

@BuzzH Is the Bob complex just over hunting?

I'm not going to even pretend like I know what from what, but it seems like the Bob should be ~ flat tops in CO. Why aren't there 20-30k elk running around in those mountains.

Yes, primarily an over hunting issue. It's all BS that there isn't any winter range...there's plenty of winter range from Clearwater Junction East to Lincoln. All of Kleinshmidt Flat, Browns Lake, Clearwater Game range, really all around Ovando.

There's enough winter range to support way more elk than there currently are. Even some of the areas I hunt near there have adequate winter range.

Predators have some impact, no question but not the impact that high powered rifles and 12+ week seasons have.

 

[Straight Arrow]

There's enough winter range to support way more elk than there currently are.

The Blackfoot River Valley Lincoln to Clearwater and both sides supported hundreds of elk a few decades ago.

 

[sacountry]

The Blackfoot River Valley Lincoln to Clearwater and both sides supported hundreds of elk a few decades ago.

I used to love hunting that stretch. Coming from Kalispell, the timber finally starts breaking up around Clearwater. I forget how many years ago it was, but FWP got pretty aggressive with the cow permits around Ovando. Lincoln used to have way more elk on public. The big bulls are still in the area, but I have to hear about them from friends who access to a small chunk of private through another friend.

 

[BuzzH]

I used to love hunting that stretch. Coming from Kalispell, the timber finally starts breaking up around Clearwater. I forget how many years ago it was, but FWP got pretty aggressive with the cow permits around Ovando. Lincoln used to have way more elk on public. The big bulls are still in the area, but I have to hear about them from friends who access to a small chunk of private through another friend.

Yes and a few years of "cow week" on a general tag too.

Its pretty much just over hunting for a long time and more and more people all the time.

I could still kill elk there, found 3 bulls hunting deer with my Nephews and convinced them not to kill any of them. They both had bull permits in Wyoming and we saw 50 or so bulls each day we hunted. They filled their tags in one 24 hour stretch.

 

[sclancy27]

I'm not Buzz, but the Bob is suffering from a complex situation relative to habitat, overhunting & impacts from predation.

At least someone else that believes in non-binary solutions...

 

[Bambistew]

This is from F&G harvest reports and population estimates, so take it for what its worth. Its interesting to see the hunter population increased maybe 10% and, harvest declined while the elk population increased about 25%. Why? Too much pressure pushing elk to in accessible areas? Numbers are bunk?

I didn't cross reference this with the tag sales, just took the numbers from the harvest reports page on F&G website. I doubt they will match up, to be honest.

BTW, they have their objective maps back up.

Elk Population And Distribution | Montana FWP

Population, distribution and objectives of elk in Montana.

fwp.mt.gov

And NR numbers

 

[sacountry]

This is from F&G harvest reports and population estimates, so take it for what its worth. Its interesting to see the hunter population increased maybe 10% and, harvest declined while the elk population increased about 25%. Why? Too much pressure pushing elk to in accessible areas? Numbers are bunk?

I didn't cross reference this with the tag sales, just took the numbers from the harvest reports page on F&G website. I doubt they will match up, to be honest.

BTW, they have their objective maps back up.

Elk Population And Distribution | Montana FWP

Population, distribution and objectives of elk in Montana.

fwp.mt.gov

View attachment 260196

The elk population numbers mirror the numbers I had. The hunter population numbers are vague.....be good to know who they counted. I used the attached report to look at a specific set of licenses trying to hone in on elk hunters.

 

[Bambistew]

The elk population numbers mirror the numbers I had. The hunter population numbers are vague.....be good to know who they counted. I used the attached report to look at a specific set of licenses trying to hone in on elk hunters.

License sales do not = hunters. Hard to believe that a NR would get a tag and not hunt, but I'd bet you 10% don't go, maybe more. Used to be that many returned tags every year.

I'm not sure which numbers are correct to be honest. I would presume the numbers from their surveys would be more accurate, which are reflected in their harvest/hunter reports?

 

[sacountry]

License sales do not = hunters. Hard to believe that a NR would get a tag and not hunt, but I'd bet you 10% don't go, maybe more. Used to be that many returned tags every year.

I'm not sure which numbers are correct to be honest. I would presume the numbers from their surveys would be more accurate, which are reflected in their harvest/hunter reports?

You're probably right, but licenses are about as close as we can get to determining hunter population.....unless someone else has developed something better.

 

[Bambistew]

You're probably right, but licenses are about as close as we can get to determining hunter population.....unless someone else has developed something better.

I can tell you from my experience here in AK. 30% of people who draw tags don't hunt them. Same goes for people who get tags. They get them them with intention of going, and don't use them. How accurate that is, no one knows, but I think its close.

I get tags that I never hunt. I'll pick up a tag just to have in case I go after that animal, but I don't. i.e. goat tag. I think having a tag in my pocket will motivate me, but it doesn't, its a goat.

 

[SAJ-99]

I can tell you from my experience here in AK. 30% of people who draw tags don't hunt them. Same goes for people who get tags. They get them them with intention of going, and don't use them. How accurate that is, no one knows, but I think its close.

I get tags that I never hunt. I'll pick up a tag just to have in case I go after that animal, but I don't. i.e. goat tag. I think having a tag in my pocket will motivate me, but it doesn't, its a goat.

As long as approximate same percentage of tags are not hunted every year you can still draw conclusions from the data. Only thing I guess is weather could change that number. A lot of hunters could get tags and not go if the weather isn’t to their liking.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Yes, primarily an over hunting issue. It's all BS that there isn't any winter range...there's plenty of winter range from Clearwater Junction East to Lincoln. All of Kleinshmidt Flat, Browns Lake, Clearwater Game range, really all around Ovando.

There's enough winter range to support way more elk than there currently are. Even some of the areas I hunt near there have adequate winter range.

Predators have some impact, no question but not the impact that high powered rifles and 12+ week seasons have.

I think the best estimate of grizzly population in the Bob Marshall and surrounding area is right around 1000 grizzlies.

I can’t imagine they don’t have an effect on calf survival in the spring.