Montana's Impossible Housing Situation

[Rie Bread]

I'm not exactly contradicting you, but there are also a lot of million-dollar homes selling in MT that are not mansions.

I know it’s wild.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I know it’s wild.

The thing is though - prices have went up across the board everywhere. Including BFE nebraska - as previously suggested. It just made hard to afford for first timer markets even worse.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

$200k for property, utilities, driveway, structure, doors, windows, finishes, mechanical, electrical, landscaping ... ready for occupancy?! You would not sell it for $1 million without all that and more, even without furniture furnishings. Your $200k cost selling for $1 million assertion seems highly doubtful.

Take a drive through Gallatin heights subdivision. Stop in and talk to a realtor! Hell, ask to talk to Pat from Sunrise homes directly.. yall can argue all you want, just because you didn’t get to do it big time like the other guys did, when the gettin was good… those same houses went up quadruple in price from phase one to phase 3 and the SAME HOUSE down the road in white horse ranch are OVER a million. I built each one in 3-7 days. Electricians plumbers tinners man everyone was in and out so damned fast in those cookie cutters. Yeah they cost money, but I said I CAN build it. I have electricians I have plumbers I have painters so you can Loan me a chunk of land and 200k and we can make some money; or just keep hating the player instead of the hating the game. Yall seem to just like the keyboard thing

 

[cgasner1]

Take a drive through Gallatin heights subdivision. Stop in and talk to a realtor! Hell, ask to talk to Pat from Sunrise homes directly.. yall can argue all you want, just because you didn’t get to do it big time like the other guys did, when the gettin was good… those same houses went up quadruple in price from phase one to phase 3 and the SAME HOUSE down the road in white horse ranch are OVER a million. I built each one in 3-7 days. Electricians plumbers tinners man everyone was in and out so damned fast in those cookie cutters. Yeah they cost money, but I said I CAN build it. I have electricians I have plumbers I have painters so you can Loan me a chunk of land and 200k and we can make some money; or just keep hating the player instead of the hating the game. Yall seem to just like the keyboard thing

You should ask pat about the time those guys tried to Rob him.

 

[LopeHunter]

I wonder how they calculate median home price. Sure lot of million dollar mansions selling in Montana.

Median is the center most number when arranged from lowest to highest home sale. Say 5 homes sold. 4 at $100,000 and 1 at $600,000. Average price would be $200,000 since $1,000,000 of sales occurred for 5 houses. The median would be $100,000. Median is more useful as a statistics when a small portion of sales are much larger than average.

The wealthiest few families in your county may control 90% of the privately held wealth though those few families represent less than 1% of families. Median wealth would be more useful for representing how much wealth the “average” family has in your county.

 

[duckhunt]

Maybe living in the middle of corn fields isn't that bad.

I was just thinking the same thing.

 

[Straight Arrow]

... just keep hating the player instead of the hating the game. Yall seem to just like the keyboard thing

Those are pretty harsh unfriendly words spewed to a fellow HTer, whose decades of construction management and estimating experience, as well as family still "in the game", merely resulted in doubtfulness about your boasting of relatively inexpensive construction costs, and then acknowledging not all project costs were included in the brag.
'Sorry it put hurt on your sleeve. You now have insulted my professional experience and knowledge.
But keep building. I sincerely hope you make a gazillion.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

'Sorry it put hurt on your sleeve. You now have insulted my professional experience and knowledge.

so it’s okay if everyone’s insulting my profession, my opinion, my observations, my anything— but when it’s reciprocated ive said “harsh and unfriendly” words to “a fellow HuntTalker”? Yall never seem to care about that when you tell me I’m wrong.

If it still costs you 800K to build a 1m dollar house, you’re doing something wrong….

 

[Straight Arrow]

so it’s okay if everyone’s insulting my profession, my opinion, my observations, my anything— but when it’s reciprocated ive said “harsh and unfriendly” words to “a fellow HuntTalker”? Yall never seem to care about that when you tell me I’m wrong.

If it still costs you 800K to build a 1m dollar house, you’re doing something wrong….

Now you are just fabricating BS! Right out of your posterior!

 

[belshawelk]

It will effect everyone that relies on any type of service, like mechanics, lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, etc. This is another reason why our divorce rates are so high

?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Why have you not included the factors of building site property, utilities, driveway, landscaping, SID fees and other actual costs included in the price for this project?
Your cost brag lacks credibility. You're fired!

 

[Ben Lamb]

so it’s okay if everyone’s insulting my profession, my opinion, my observations, my anything— but when it’s reciprocated ive said “harsh and unfriendly” words to “a fellow HuntTalker”? Yall never seem to care about that when you tell me I’m wrong.

If it still costs you 800K to build a 1m dollar house, you’re doing something wrong….

I guess I don't understand how $200K could include finishes or not cut a ton of corners. I've been in a number of those houses west of 19th. They're not what I would call "quality" builds.

 

[Lab]

I can't make sense how people are doing it in Bozeman. Primarily the young families that have moved here in the last 5 years. Two parents working, making maybe 120-200K between the two of them (on the higher end). If they bought in the last 3 years, it's a minimum mortgage of 3,500 but more likely 4-5K after taxes and insurance. On top of that if they have kids in daycare, that's another 1800/month per a kid.

After health insurance/car insurance/food and big sky family ski passes they can't be putting a dollar in savings. Either people are making a lot more than I think they are or there's a lot of trust funders or people that have no retirement plan. Probably some combo of the three.

If I hadn't bought when I did (2015), I'd probably be at one of the sprawling towns outside of metropolitan areas like Boise, Denver, or SL where there's more industry/higher paying jobs/and a more diverse selection of housing options.

Bozeman is great though. Unfortunately, I don't see it in the cards for my kids unless I can manage to secure some serious wealth or get flatbrimmer to hook me up with a couple value homes. My wife is a Pharmacist, I'm an engineer. We've made reasonable money most of our careers but probably could make double in a lot of places in the country.

Still out of principle there's no way I could convince myself to buy a starter home for 825K with 6-7% interest rate and be broke for the next 30 years. That's the reality of the valley now. A good buddy just moved out for this exact reason.

Truth! I worry for all our kids. Homeownerhip is not going to happen for a lot of them

 

[Ben Lamb]

As far as housing prices go, MT is at the top of the pile for lack of affordability, but the frenzy of purchasing was driven by low interest rates and a lot more freedom of movement relative to remote work becoming a big part of the matrix now.

That means there's a pile of commercial real estate that's going to be heading towards bankruptcy at some point. Those can be turned into multi-family housing, etc. Rural MT - take Harlowtown for example - has a ton of empty space downtown. Lewistown is filling up, GFunk is too. But there's a ton of existing infrastructure around that can be repurposed. Office space above retail in downtowns, empty storefronts & buildings in small towns, etc. It's a mistake to think that the housing market is so enamored with single family homes on .25 acres or 5 acre horse ghettos. Provide well built, affordable housing utilizing existing infra and you cut your costs way down w/no need to expanded sewer, water, electrical, etc.

Then you get folks like this: https://montanafreepress.org/2023/1...llenge-against-pro-construction-housing-laws/

They want to stop progress on dealing with the issue because their neighborhoods wouldn't be as gentrified. They'd have people moving in, changing their bucolic little neighborhoods. Another example of NIMBY. I mean I get it, but the neighborhood we lived in in Helena was mixed single family and multi-family and it was lovely. It's how we used to do things before we got addicted to the ticky-tacky houses and "quaint" old houses in neighborhoods established 100 years ago.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I guess I don't understand how $200K could include finishes or not cut a ton of corners. I've been in a number of those houses west of 19th. They're not what I would call "quality" builds.

Cost and value. Your questions are my questions, sir….

 

[Ben Lamb]

Cost and value. Your questions are my questions, sir….

Well let's take appliances then. Are we talking builder grade, bottom end stuff or is it higher quality and better value for the buyer?

Counter tops: Cheap formica or something else?

Bath fixtures - Glacier Bay or Moen?

From a buyer's perspective - how much of that build am I going to have to fix in 2-3 years? Is the trim going to fall apart? When is the roof going to start leaking?

 

[Straight Arrow]

The planning accomplished by some metropolitan areas to preserve and protect agriculture, open space, wildlife values and a number of other widely cherished conditions across the landscape has resulted in the "densification" of the areas more appropriate for growth, the areas already providing utilities and services such as sewer & water, law enforcement, schools, transportation and others required and desired by residents. Gallatin County is currently in the process of developing a Future Land Use Map (FLUM), which strongly considers the more dense development of such appropriate areas.
I support that process as it protects wildlife and conservation values important to me and my family as multi-generational Montanans, as well as many like minded friends, neighbors, and acquaintances who have adopted the long held Montana values.

 

[Forkyfinder]

As far as housing prices go, MT is at the top of the pile for lack of affordability, but the frenzy of purchasing was driven by low interest rates and a lot more freedom of movement relative to remote work becoming a big part of the matrix now.

That means there's a pile of commercial real estate that's going to be heading towards bankruptcy at some point. Those can be turned into multi-family housing, etc. Rural MT - take Harlowtown for example - has a ton of empty space downtown. Lewistown is filling up, GFunk is too. But there's a ton of existing infrastructure around that can be repurposed. Office space above retail in downtowns, empty storefronts & buildings in small towns, etc. It's a mistake to think that the housing market is so enamored with single family homes on .25 acres or 5 acre horse ghettos. Provide well built, affordable housing utilizing existing infra and you cut your costs way down w/no need to expanded sewer, water, electrical, etc.

Then you get folks like this: https://montanafreepress.org/2023/1...llenge-against-pro-construction-housing-laws/

They want to stop progress on dealing with the issue because their neighborhoods wouldn't be as gentrified. They'd have people moving in, changing their bucolic little neighborhoods. Another example of NIMBY. I mean I get it, but the neighborhood we lived in in Helena was mixed single family and multi-family and it was lovely. It's how we used to do things before we got addicted to the ticky-tacky houses and "quaint" old houses in neighborhoods established 100 years ago.

This is true.

@Ben Lamb what do you make of restrictions on airbnb/vrbo and other non occupied homes? Seems like theres push for it in places in CO

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Well let's take appliances then. Are we talking builder grade, bottom end stuff or is it higher quality and better value for the buyer?

Counter tops: Cheap formica or something else?

Bath fixtures - Glacier Bay or Moen?

From a buyer's perspective - how much of that build am I going to have to fix in 2-3 years? Is the trim going to fall apart? When is the roof going to start leaking?

Are you trying to entertain people?

TEMU everything. The roof, from a structural standpoint, will be perfect. I can’t speak for the products temu sends you or the migrants you hire to put it on.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Are you trying to entertain people?

TEMU everything. The roof, from a structural standpoint, will be perfect. I can’t speak for the products temu sends you or the migrants you hire to put it on.

Just some questions around quality of build. Sorry if that triggered you. No offence meant.