The resource can’t handle the current level of pressure with a rut hunt. If we continue this path forward the whole state is headed for LE. (Look what happened in region 4) I thought you advocated for wildlife? It’s that simple. Makes changes now or your opportunity to hunt mule deer every year is going to be gone somewhere in the future when the dimmest of bulbs can finally see it.
Montana - Time to Shake it Up?
- Thread starter Big Fin
- Start date
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,684
Respectfully, I did not reduce his argument to be only about opportunity. I specifically referenced that I was not only referring to him.
I did expand beyond @Visiting Hunter in my response and I understand that may be confusing. Some of his comments were archetypical of a commonly articulated opposition to any change in that they paralleled “we prefer opportunity and we have opportunity because we could have killed a deer”. As such, those sentiments were lumped into and expanded upon. Such is often the case in developing arguments and conversations.
Choosing to respond to or highlight only portions of a conversation isn’t necessarily “reducing someone’s arguments to a straw man.”
There’s a ton of all over the board discussion on this thread. It probably looks like there’s no potential for consensus. However, I am confident that when the recommendations of our discussions come forth and are presented as a value based proposition and folks are asked if they’re willing to sacrifice one aspect of “opportunity” for the sake of having a different “opportunity” there’s going to be significant buy in. Especially among those who have firsthand experience of the downturn in mule deer as a resource and the quality of hunting mule deer.
sclancy27
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2022
- Messages
- 653
I would also say that not recognizing that there is a weather component (at least as far as recent total population in R7) and putting the blame solely on overharvest is not going to help matters when talking to commissioners or the department.
Elky Welky
Well-known member
Elky Welky
Well-known member
I'm am genuinely cheering for this in-person effort and excited to see what you come up with @gerald.
But these threads are sure tiresome sometimes. Call it straw man or cherry picking, it really is "choose your own fallacy." As someone used to courtrooms and rules designed to lead to the truth, it's really the wild west.
I am an old guy who can name off a dozen areas where we used to see 50 to 100 mule deer a day while walking/ hunting. Today you can expect to see 5 or less deer a day in those areas. These areas are traditional winter range areas. The deer on them represent the deer from a several hundred square mile area. When I say there are no deer left in these areas, I know that there are no deer left because there are no deer tracks. Not that there are no deer tracks there this year, that the number of deer tracks have steadily declined over the last 2 decades to the present near total lack of deer.
I have hunted these areas for 5 decades and have trapped some of these areas off and on for 4 decades and spent much of that time reading the sign on the ground.
I also owned a super cub for several years and what I have seen on the ground has been confirmed from the air.
I went glassing a few weeks ago with good snow on the ground and temperatures around 20 below zero. For the people who don't know the significance of that, those are very favorable glassing conditions. I started when it was too dark to see and glassed several areas until about noon.
I saw zero mule deer over a couple of hundred yards from a house. 20 years ago, I would have seen hundreds of deer under these conditions. All of the area that I glassed still allows mule deer antlerless B tags to be filled on public land.
Something needs to change with mule deer management in Montana.
I have hunted these areas for 5 decades and have trapped some of these areas off and on for 4 decades and spent much of that time reading the sign on the ground.
I also owned a super cub for several years and what I have seen on the ground has been confirmed from the air.
I went glassing a few weeks ago with good snow on the ground and temperatures around 20 below zero. For the people who don't know the significance of that, those are very favorable glassing conditions. I started when it was too dark to see and glassed several areas until about noon.
I saw zero mule deer over a couple of hundred yards from a house. 20 years ago, I would have seen hundreds of deer under these conditions. All of the area that I glassed still allows mule deer antlerless B tags to be filled on public land.
Something needs to change with mule deer management in Montana.
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,684
@Elky Welky, you obviously underestimate the power of a riled up lynch mob to get a politician or resource manager to change their mind….
Do you really believe that legislative and resource management change only happens because compelling information is presented in an articulate manner?
I’d say far more gets accomplished because someone who has credibility and an influential relationship to someone who has the responsibility to make a decision weighs in and asks for a change. Relationship trumps information in most cases because everyone tends to base the reliability of the information on their respect for the person presenting the information.
Do you really believe that legislative and resource management change only happens because compelling information is presented in an articulate manner?
I’d say far more gets accomplished because someone who has credibility and an influential relationship to someone who has the responsibility to make a decision weighs in and asks for a change. Relationship trumps information in most cases because everyone tends to base the reliability of the information on their respect for the person presenting the information.
Quick, be sure to remind everyone that you're a lawyer too!
mmw194287
Well-known member
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,684
Like it or not, many of the “trolls”, “a-holes” or “blowhards” articulating the doom of mule deer have the street creds to back up their complaints and solutions.
Elky Welky
Well-known member
I try to avoid absolutes where I can, and you're right. I didn't say it "only" happens because the information is presented in a compelling manner. It's more likely and better practice, and credibility and influence are built by those that can present info in a compelling way. Those aren't mutually exclusive. The more articulate and compelling, the more likely you are to rile up that lynch mob in the first place!@Elky Welky, you obviously underestimate the power of a riled up lynch mob to get a politician or resource manager to change their mind….
Do you really believe that legislative and resource management change only happens because compelling information is presented in an articulate manner?
I’d say far more gets accomplished because someone who has credibility and an influential relationship to someone who has the responsibility to make a decision weighs in and asks for a change. Relationship trumps information in most cases because everyone tends to base the reliability of the information on their respect for the person presenting the information.
Oh good, @JMos3 has returned to troll me
If I ever get in any trouble I want @Elky Welky to be my lawyer. He would wear out any judge or jury.
Back to mule deer, LE is a near reality. Region 4 changes is going to displace a lot of hunters. They are going to end up in region 6 and 7. Region 7 is Montana’s crown jewel of opportunity for deer so region 6 will likely go LE next, the residents are pissed what has happened there. Once that happens region 7 will have to…. eventually. It could happen quickly.
Edit: or we could quit hunting mule deer in November
Back to mule deer, LE is a near reality. Region 4 changes is going to displace a lot of hunters. They are going to end up in region 6 and 7. Region 7 is Montana’s crown jewel of opportunity for deer so region 6 will likely go LE next, the residents are pissed what has happened there. Once that happens region 7 will have to…. eventually. It could happen quickly.
Edit: or we could quit hunting mule deer in November
Elky Welky
Well-known member
Maybe I just get lucky with where I have chosen to hunt (which I don't believe is the case) but I legitimately can't fathom Spending an entire day in mule deer country looking for mule deer and not seeing more than 5 deer...? Big and old bucks are (and have always been) tricky to find, but the areas I have hunted mule deer in Montana have turned up plenty of deer. Yes, I live here and have hunted here for many years.
Help me understand where you're coming from with your statements because your observations are drastically different from my observations and it's not because I'm such a phenomenal hunter.
It is
Gerald Martin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2009
- Messages
- 8,684
I’m in agreement that an articulate argument with good information is probably the best way to broker durable solutions. Some good old fashioned influencing doesn’t hurt either.
I’m not sure if I am breaking the confidence of our group or not when I reveal this tidbit but I’m going to risk it. We did a small focus poll of four and can report that Donald Trump, Mitch Mconnell, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden agree that Montana mule deer are doing great and FWP shouldn’t change a thing in the way deer are managed. Everything is just fine.
Sorry for spilling the beans guys.
Weather, habitat, predation, summer disturbance, competition from elk, etc are all part of the discussion.
The harvest matrix is what the commission can act on outside of the new deer mgt plan & soon to be announced mule deer working group. Additive to that is how elk fit into all of this both in terms of competition and how elk hunting pressure effects other species. Mule deer no doubt become targets of opportunity. Nothing wrong with that until the animals tell us differently, and they are doing so across their range, not just in MT. Other states make big shifts in hunting strategies based on herd condition. Montana traditionally has been more liberal in harvest due to a variety of factors but those things are changing (loss of habitat to development, weeds, etc) and at the same time elk hunting is getting worse (more days, less harvest) on public land while that population soars.
Furthermore, we continued to add pressure & sell more licenses as herds were nose-diving. I don't think that was anyone's goal, but it does seem a bit like folks recognized the problem a little late & the overcorrection was severe (no doe harvest for 6 & 7 in public).
So from the 50,000 foot level, license sales & season length are 2 critical pieces of the puzzle. Those are also areas where the commission has shown receptiveness to citizen engagement, and where there is some commonality between hunters, landowners & outfitters.
The habitat issue is being worked on by various groups & agencies while the weather is really in God's hands. The effort to improve how mule deer are managed through hunting is only a part of the overall picture. While some are passionate about that (thankfully), I don't think anyone is ignoring the rest of the picture.
And to anyone thinking of jumping into that dumpster fire mismanagement thread,
Your mental health will thank you.
