Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[Gerald Martin]

This is the strawman argument that goes both ways. One side says: "hey, maybe it isn't all doom and gloom and there's a chance to work within this system to improve it" which is quickly interpreted as YOU HATE MULE DEER THEY ARE ALL DYING FWP SUCKS AND THE WORLD IS ENDING. Or, one side says: "I'm worried about the decreasing populations and have some ideas for solutions that would change the status quo" and the response is MULE DEER ARE FINE STOP WHINING ABOUT YOUR TROPHIES AND TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OPPORTUNITY. We argue past each other and this conversation goes in constant circles.

Around and around and around we go.

Are you saying my observation about people whose biggest concern is that their opportunity isn’t diminished is a straw man?

What specifically does working within this system look like? Does that mean no change from the current management policies that have existed pretty much unchanged for decades?

 

[DFS]

This is the strawman argument that goes both ways. One side says: "hey, maybe it isn't all doom and gloom and there's a chance to work within this system to improve it" which is quickly interpreted as YOU HATE MULE DEER THEY ARE ALL DYING FWP SUCKS AND THE WORLD IS ENDING. Or, one side says: "I'm worried about the decreasing populations and have some ideas for solutions that would change the status quo" and the response is MULE DEER ARE FINE STOP WHINING ABOUT YOUR TROPHIES AND TRYING TO TAKE AWAY OPPORTUNITY. We argue past each other and this conversation goes in constant circles.

Around and around and around we go.

One side has 1000’s of hours of field time and decades of experience. The other is fairly inexperienced. I know who is right.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think people underestimate mature bucks in October. A little pressure and they will go nocturnal and there is no reason for them to come out of the cover or be on their feet. A lot of bucks will still get harvested no doubt however harvest would be more opportunistic and less focused. The problem I see with any change that might save a few older bucks is that this flies in the face of Cwd management practices which are to lower age classes and focus more harvest on the older age class bucks. The best way to do that is hunt the rut.

Older age class bucks are a statistical rarity in MT. CWD is still spreading at the same rate as it does in other states with older age classes of deer. Call me a skeptic when it comes to the efficacy of CWD management practices in slowing CWD.

 

[BuzzH]

Older age class bucks are a statistical rarity in MT. CWD is still spreading at the same rate as it does in other states with older age classes of deer. Call me a skeptic when it comes to the efficacy of CWD management practices in slowing CWD.

Good luck convincing the professionals of that.

IMO, that will be the biggest hurdle to enact meaningful change. Could be wrong.

 

[Stifler]

So perhaps there actually are too many people exploiting a limited resource? Perhaps reducing opportunity might be necessary to avoid destroying the opportunity to enjoy an abundant resource in the future?


I’m not necessarily picking on you individually @Visiting Hunter, it just seems to me that folks whose biggest concern when mule deer is the topic is that they don’t have a reduction in opportunity are missing the point.

When my financial advisor tells me my spending habits are out of control, I’m out of credit and will soon be unable to make my payments, I hope I would have enough wisdom to change my habits rather than tell him I’m not willing to give up any opportunity to buy on credit.

I just see it as the fact everyones going to the same area. as I stated earlier non residents are alot harder to find around my house.. except bow season. Why do you think that is? We have deer here too? Just spread out a little. But they won't because it fits their hunt style.

I get what your saying but it wasn't explained like were overspending our resource... as much as we maintain.. some years goes up some goes down... winters etc... if 1 buck is good for up to 10 does why we even shoot does just manage the doe populations. I just truly don't think our state would over exploit it. Iv seen changes in units etc... they do change to try and accommodate what's happening. My elk area I hunt has changed... because its over objective.. the area around Seeley.. had to start doing draws I don't remember when my father in law told me... but to many lions killed to many whitetail so they adjusted those. I truly think if something was over exploited they would adjust somehow.

@Randy11 you are honestly gonna have to spell out what your trying to get me to reach at. 20% of what? I'm super swamped at work here today to really even be trying to have this conversation... maybe I'm way off on what I'm even thinking and missed something? And have been in the river floating downstream all day.. dropping 7 days is nothing.. Dropping rut would entail pretty much all of November would it not? around veterans day Prerut action kicking off then rut? So that's pretty much 3/4s Atleast 1/2 of November... or did I miss something entirely?

 

[Elky Welky]

@Gerald Martin 1. Yes, you absolutely reduced his argument to a straw man and have been arguing against that throughout. 2. Read @Ben Lamb's post above. 3. That's for the working group to figure out.

@DFS good inadvertent point, that's the other circular argument so well articulated by @visting hunter as "boomer entitlement." "I've been on this earth longer so therefore I'm right" versus "We're in the trenches and also have more firsthand experience than you're willing to acknowledge." This too is the other great loop these threads get trapped in.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Fwp still needing the funding from the sales. So I just don't see the NR tags going down in whats allowed. until residents want to pay a little more and/or are willing to pay a state tax to help fund the department.

This is a legitimate issue. I’m supportive of increasing cost for resident licenses as well as incorporating other sources of funding into FWP beyond license sales. FWP is legally mandated to manage the wildlife resources of Montana for all the residents of Montana whether they hunt or not. Let the residents of Montana share the burden of cost to manage their wildlife resources instead of relying only on license sales to fund FWP.

FWP’s opposition to changing management practices because it won’t allow them to have the finances to continue to operate the same management practices that we are asking them to change is a real circular logic that needs a paradigm shift.

 

[mtmuley]

@Gerald Martin 1. "We're in the trenches and also have more firsthand experience than you're willing to acknowledge." This too is the other great loop these threads get trapped in.

Seems to me these are the types of guys to listen to about this. mtmuley

 

[Deleted member 48080]

I was blown away this last season. Truly. Looked like a concert was in town. I just visualize that all crammed into 4 weeks. Every Sunday people would head out. Then sunday night it was a whole new batch of trucks ready for Monday morning.

Depends if you get after it with a bow in September to November. Some areas around me into December. But rifle October 21- November 26.

2024 regs October 26th to December 1st

@Randy11 you are honestly gonna have to spell out what your trying to get me to reach at. 20% of what? I'm super swamped at work here today to really even be trying to have this conversation... maybe I'm way off on what I'm even thinking and missed something? And have been in the river floating downstream all day.. dropping 7 days is nothing.. Dropping rut would entail pretty much all of November would it not? around veterans day Prerut action kicking off then rut? So that's pretty much 3/4s Atleast 1/2 of November... or did I miss something entirely?

Current season is 5 weeks. You said you were imagining how bad it would be at 4 weeks. That's a 20% reduction.

 

[Gerald Martin]

@Gerald Martin 1. Yes, you absolutely reduced his argument to a straw man and have been arguing against that throughout. 2. Read @Ben Lamb's post above. 3. That's for the working group to figure out.

@DFS good inadvertent point, that's the other circular argument so well articulated by @visting hunter as "boomer entitlement." "I've been on this earth longer so therefore I'm right" versus "We're in the trenches and also have more firsthand experience than you're willing to acknowledge." This too is the other great loop these threads get trapped in.

Okay, now I am just confused. Whose argument have I reduced to a straw man?


I read Ben’s post and understood it the first time.

I’m also part of the group that sat down to figure out how to “work within the system” to improve the health of mule deer as a resource and preserve real opportunity.

 

[Elky Welky]

Seems to me these are the types of guys to listen to about this. mtmuley

You missed the point. Sometimes that's true. Oftentimes they are just blowing smoke. I tend to listen to the people who have the most reasonable and well articulated ideas, listen to others, and argue from positions of understanding. I wouldn't trust an old guy who got open heart surgery to know more about how to do it than the young doctor with nimble fingers who actually did the surgery.

 

[DFS]

@Elky Welky Any meaningful change seems highly unlikely. I hope you remember these conversations 5-10 years down the road if you are still hunting. Maybe the light will switch on and you will realize we weren’t blowing smoke. How bad are we going to let it get.

 

[Stifler]

Sorry good catch bad wording. @Randy11
More in the case the season was halfed was my scenario I was thinking. and what I was getting at it should say 2.5 weeks my bad.

 

[mtmuley]

You missed the point. Sometimes that's true. Oftentimes they are just blowing smoke. I tend to listen to the people who have the most reasonable and well articulated ideas, listen to others, and argue from positions of understanding. I wouldn't trust an old guy who got open heart surgery to know more about how to do it than the young doctor with nimble fingers who actually did the surgery.

I guess I was referring to the older hunters on this site specifically. mtmuley

 

[sclancy27]

This is a legitimate issue. I’m supportive of increasing cost for resident licenses as well as incorporating other sources of funding into FWP beyond license sales. FWP is legally mandated to manage the wildlife resources of Montana for all the residents of Montana whether they hunt or not. Let the residents of Montana share the burden of cost to manage their wildlife resources instead of relying only on license sales to fund FWP.

FWP’s opposition to changing management practices because it won’t allow them to have the finances to continue to operate the same management practices that we are asking them to change is a real circular logic that needs a paradigm shift.

It's not just FWP. We're going to struggle to get the commission and/or legislature on board, not to mention other hunters.. It needs to be a united front, much like MOGA produces a united front when they offer up changes. I don't agree with alot of what MOGA does, but man they sure do create a unified message.

 

[Elky Welky]

I’m also part of the group that sat down to figure out how to “work within the system” to improve the health of mule deer as a resource and preserve real opportunity.

I know, @Gerald Martin. Which is why I answered question 3 the way I did.

You reduced visiting hunter's arguments to only being only about opportunity while missing all his other points. That was all I was showing. My larger point was really about how ridiculous these threads get, however, not just what you said.

There are so many traps and pitfalls here to quality discussion and critical argumentation that would actually move the needle. If I was still teaching college level rhetoric, I'd show these threads to my students and ask them to identify as many rhetorical fallacies as they could using this chart: https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/rhetological-fallacies/

@DFS In 5-10 years I will still be hunting and in the trenches, doing what I can for public lands, waters, and wildlife, as I already have been my entire life.

 

[Gerald Martin]

You missed the point. Sometimes that's true. Oftentimes they are just blowing smoke. I tend to listen to the people who have the most reasonable and well articulated ideas, listen to others, and argue from positions of understanding. I wouldn't trust an old guy who got open heart surgery to know more about how to do it than the young doctor with nimble fingers who actually did the surgery.

Among the guys who sat around that table my 22 years of hunting experience was the second least amount of mule deer hunting experience. Most folks had a decade or more experience than that and some had more than double. Some folks were vocal, some folks spoke less. Everyone agreed on the substance of the issues.

Who you choose to allow to change your mind is your prerogative. The manner in which they do so is not necessarily an indicator of the accuracy of their information.

 

[huntin24/7]

You missed the point. Sometimes that's true. Oftentimes they are just blowing smoke. I tend to listen to the people who have the most reasonable and well articulated ideas, listen to others, and argue from positions of understanding. I wouldn't trust an old guy who got open heart surgery to know more about how to do it than the young doctor with nimble fingers who actually did the surgery.

I think you make a good point about trusting the experts, and generally that means trusting the biologists. I think there is a lot of issue in MT that the biologists opinion is what they’re told their opinion will be from those much higher than them. Also, I get what you’re saying with guys blowing smoke. However, a lot of us have spent a lot of years out in these areas hunting, but not just hunting, observing the changes and trends over the years. Often times that is absolutely as valuable or more valuable information.

 

[Mtn-time]

The old phrase "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink." The key is to make that horse thirsty. Now that everybody riled up and wants a solution. I have a feeling that those who are in power and/or of major influence have a solution in mind and have had one for quite sometime. When the public issues direct the science based recommendation to a different orientation, the elected officials and their main supporters will dictate the final outcome. I could see the it coming down to a pick the rut you want to hunt to start with and then seasons within seasons further down the road in the future.

 

[Elky Welky]

The manner in which they do so is not necessarily an indicator of the accuracy of their information.

Sure. But effective rhetoric and knowing how to articulate ideas well is what gets things done, changes minds (not just mine), gets politicians elected, and commissioners to act: whether the info is accurate or not.

Lots of people here have strong opinions, maybe strong backgrounds and experience, but until they can articulate those ideas well to get people on their side, we'll just keep going in circles.

*EDIT* Or a big checkbook. That probably trumps rhetorical skill as far as getting people to change their minds.