Montana season structure proposal 2.0

[rogerthat]

She never did anything to me

Well you’re not a rich out of stater. They pick on those types

 

[cgasner1]

Well you’re not a rich out of stater. They pick on those types

Broke transplant….when I have lived most if my life in Montana

 

[Coule stalker]

They don't work. Counter productive at best.

Counter productive from what perspective, selling the idea to the people or it doesn’t work? FWP sure does like the method on bull elk in some areas. Like I said I’m just catching up here

 

[Nick87]

Counter productive from what perspective, selling the idea to the people or it doesn’t work? FWP sure does like the method on bull elk in some areas. Like I said I’m just catching up here

It doesn't work.

 

[brockel]

Counter productive from what perspective, selling the idea to the people or it doesn’t work? FWP sure does like the method on bull elk in some areas. Like I said I’m just catching up here

End up with lots of old 3pts doing the breeding. Bucks like this would get a pass when they shouldn’t

 

[huntin24/7]

There was some talk about regional caps a page or two back. I support those for both residents and non. The actual process for doing this would be much simpler for non residents since there’s sort of a limit on overall tags issued to them. Residents would be much more challenging to figure out at least initially.

Couldn’t we do something similar to WY in this regard. Regions G and H are traditionally more difficult to draw than others from what I understand. Just throwing out numbers here so don’t beat me up on %. But couldn’t you issue 20ish% of non res tags to each of region 6 and 7 and 10-15% to the other regions. Each regions FWP could determine what % of tags in their region go to muley vs. whitetail. You could have up to 3 choices for regions at app time and if you’re set on one region, gain a bonus point for future apps. Just some thoughts I had.

I understand this is pushing the LE issue and to clarify, I’d prefer to avoid that as long as possible like most of you.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I’m not the guy to ask @sclancy27 .

I have no professional expertise here; no real quality input besides what I interpret as an average everyday blue collar Montana hunter. As far as caps, I’d pay a lot more to greatly reduce the NR tag allocation but we already heard the gripes about the “law” and all that.. I think that’s the tree you should be barking up. A good pool player takes his hardest shot first. You kill the king the castle will fall, duh. Get rid of the 17,000 deer/elk tags for NR and you don’t have to change much else to see improvement.


Edit: And keep outfitters/guides on private land only. We all bump em back and forth it’s a win win. Not, *outfitter bumps em onto private and then goes and hunts same private*

 

[antlerradar]

Counter productive from what perspective, selling the idea to the people or it doesn’t work? FWP sure does like the method on bull elk in some areas. Like I said I’m just catching up here

What is your goal for antler point restrictions?

 

[WanderWoman]

Counter productive from what perspective, selling the idea to the people or it doesn’t work? FWP sure does like the method on bull elk in some areas. Like I said I’m just catching up here

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/commission/2021/oct-28/wildlife/deer-ahm/4h---mdwg-fact-sheet-06-aprs.pdf

This is a good synopsis on APRs. One major difference between APRs in deer and say, a brow-tine bull restriction in elk, is with deer, it takes a few years (generally) for a buck to be a 4-pt. With buck survival rates that really narrows down the number of harvestable deer and all the pressure is concentrated on that age class/antler class—generally the one you want to see more of. A BTB restriction pretty much just saves spike (yearling) bulls and the harvest is still fairly spread out across the ‘older’ age classes. I’m not super familiar with BTB restrictions but some older research in the Gravellys showed that they increased the bull:cow ratios (more spikes left after the season) and the age of harvest (fewer spikes in the harvest to lower avg age).

 

[Irrelevant]

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/commission/2021/oct-28/wildlife/deer-ahm/4h---mdwg-fact-sheet-06-aprs.pdf

This is a good synopsis on APRs. One major difference between APRs in deer and say, a brow-tine bull restriction in elk, is with deer, it takes a few years (generally) for a buck to be a 4-pt. With buck survival rates that really narrows down the number of harvestable deer and all the pressure is concentrated on that age class/antler class—generally the one you want to see more of. A BTB restriction pretty much just saves spike (yearling) bulls and the harvest is still fairly spread out across the ‘older’ age classes. I’m not super familiar with BTB restrictions but some older research in the Gravellys showed that they increased the bull:cow ratios (more spikes left after the season) and the age of harvest (fewer spikes in the harvest to lower avg age).

Apr are also another way to limit overall harvest allowing the agency to continue to issue too many tags... It's a wdfw mainstay.

 

[Elktrack]

I’m not the guy to ask @sclancy27 .

Get rid of the 17,000 deer/elk tags for NR and you don’t have to change much else to see improvement.


Edit: And keep outfitters/guides on private land only. We all bump em back and forth it’s a win win. Not, *outfitter bumps em onto private and then goes and hunts same private*

Hahaha. Good one. You could get rid of every NR and this problem still won’t go away. I know it’s popular to hate on the NR and there’s some validity to it, but the behaviors causing this aren’t solely a NR thing.

I keep reading guys saying that they’d gladly pay more to eliminate the NR hordes and let things get back to being good again. The cold hard truth is that until there are changes made to modify the MD seasons in a few regions it won’t matter. R are not going to magically stop doing the same thing as the NR.

 

[Coule stalker]

Apr are also another way to limit overall harvest allowing the agency to continue to issue too many tags... It's a wdfw mainstay.

That is exactly my point.. the thought is to increase overall numbers of MD right? Put a 5 year sunset on the rule and reassess. I know folks don’t think they work, and the argument is always the same… but if you don’t kill as many forties and threes you will have more 4’s in a short order. Also there are a lot of 2’s and 3’s.. younger deer doing the breeding already. Especially on the late estrus does. I know some deer will never get bigger than a 3 pt but so be it for a few years. We are talking strictly MD.. let the youth continue to take any buck..

 

[Ought Six]

I was in R7 last weekend and tried to pay attention to license plates. It was about 3:1 NR:R license plates. A couple guys from Illinois parked right in the middle of the highway with both doors wide open on a blind corner and then looked at me like I was the bad guy for having to drive on the shoulder to get around them.

 

[Coule stalker]

Hahaha. Good one. You could get rid of every NR and this problem still won’t go away. I know it’s popular to hate on the NR and there’s some validity to it, but the behaviors causing this aren’t solely a NR thing.

I keep reading guys saying that they’d gladly pay more to eliminate the NR hordes and let things get back to being good again. The cold hard truth is that until there are changes made to modify the MD seasons in a few regions it won’t matter. R are not going to magically stop doing the same thing as the NR.

I find that a lot, I mean a lot of our residents are just as guilty of the things that NR’s get blamed for. What I have seen in the past is guys that travel here buy as many OTC B tags as possible. It’s pretty disgusting pulling up to the processor to wait in line behind a convoy of pickups with deer stacked in like cord wood. I live and hunt in region 7 and it has been like that year after year. At least the B tags are draw only now over here

 

[antlerradar]

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/commission/2021/oct-28/wildlife/deer-ahm/4h---mdwg-fact-sheet-06-aprs.pdf

This is a good synopsis on APRs. One major difference between APRs in deer and say, a brow-tine bull restriction in elk, is with deer, it takes a few years (generally) for a buck to be a 4-pt. With buck survival rates that really narrows down the number of harvestable deer and all the pressure is concentrated on that age class/antler class—generally the one you want to see more of. A BTB restriction pretty much just saves spike (yearling) bulls and the harvest is still fairly spread out across the ‘older’ age classes. I’m not super familiar with BTB restrictions but some older research in the Gravellys showed that they increased the bull:cow ratios (more spikes left after the season) and the age of harvest (fewer spikes in the harvest to lower avg age).

Good stuff. I would add that the vast majority of the truly big buck I have been able to keep track of down to the age of two were four points when they were two years old. APR end up doing the exact opposite of what most people what them to accomplish.
I could see some promise in 3 point or better APR when it comes to CWD. Likely even more effective than hunting all of Nov.

 

[rogerthat]

That is exactly my point.. the thought is to increase overall numbers of MD right? Put a 5 year sunset on the rule and reassess. I know folks don’t think they work, and the argument is always the same… but if you don’t kill as many forties and threes you will have more 4’s in a short order. Also there are a lot of 2’s and 3’s.. younger deer doing the breeding already. Especially on the late estrus does. I know some deer will never get bigger than a 3 pt but so be it for a few years. We are talking strictly MD.. let the youth continue to take any buck..

Buck harvest has little to no appreciable effect on population, doe harvest does that. Maybe you mean buck to doe ratio? Or more bucks in general?

 

[Ben Lamb]

I live in an APR area. I can shoot two bucks each year, one has to be a 3 point on one side, the other has to be a 4 point - so using western metrics - that's a forkie (count the brow tines) and a 3 year old 3 point. APR may work in terms of growing larger, more mature whitetail in the eastern part of the nation, but I haven't seen anything that validates the approach for mule deer, and in fact, the Mule Deer Foundation folks don't seem too eager to adopt that approach either. You also have vastly different habitat types between those APR states in the east and the places in the west where MD live. While I will hunt a 640 in Michigan, I'll have 10-15 other people with me. If I have 10-15 people with me on the same 6400 acres in MT, I tend to feel crowded.

In this instance, I think that APR's focus on the wrong metric, IMO. It puts the focus on trophy quality rather than overall herd management and I'm not entirely convinced that MD would respond like whitetail do. The group's approach to the proposal was multi-faceted as well, so while everyone wants to focus on deer, the impacts to elk management are noticable as well. Changing the proposal to only reflect the desires of folks who want trophy-class mule deer is kind of counter to what the group is wanting to accomplish overall.

It's a solid question to ask, the APR one. Most private deer management folks will either love or hate APR's. I'm in the "meh" camp, but I see the utility in some instances.

 

[Straight Arrow]

In Montana APR prominently refers to American Prairie Reserve. Your reference must relate to antlers, but not clear. After over thirty years in the military ... I'm about over acronyms!
You certainly may use it ... but please just spell it out once first for us ignorant muley dummies.

 

[rogerthat]

I live in an APR area. I can shoot two bucks each year, one has to be a 3 point on one side, the other has to be a 4 point - so using western metrics - that's a forkie (count the brow tines) and a 3 year old 3 point. APR may work in terms of growing larger, more mature whitetail in the eastern part of the nation, but I haven't seen anything that validates the approach for mule deer, and in fact, the Mule Deer Foundation folks don't seem too eager to adopt that approach either. You also have vastly different habitat types between those APR states in the east and the places in the west where MD live. While I will hunt a 640 in Michigan, I'll have 10-15 other people with me. If I have 10-15 people with me on the same 6400 acres in MT, I tend to feel crowded.

In this instance, I think that APR's focus on the wrong metric, IMO. It puts the focus on trophy quality rather than overall herd management and I'm not entirely convinced that MD would respond like whitetail do. The group's approach to the proposal was multi-faceted as well, so while everyone wants to focus on deer, the impacts to elk management are noticable as well. Changing the proposal to only reflect the desires of folks who want trophy-class mule deer is kind of counter to what the group is wanting to accomplish overall.

It's a solid question to ask, the APR one. Most private deer management folks will either love or hate APR's. I'm in the "meh" camp, but I see the utility in some instances.

It’s been studied for mule deer. I believe in utah or Wyoming. Bumps up buck to doe for about a year than trends back where you started. I will see if I can dig up the studies.

Edit: jeff short studied this

Antler Point Restrictions with Wyo Bio Jeff Short

Jeff Short is an expert on Antler Point Restrictions effectiveness in several western states. He explains how and when they help mule deer

www.rokslide.com

 

[mukbowhunt]

It’s been studied for mule deer. I believe in utah or Wyoming. Bumps up buck to doe for about a year than trends back where you started. I will see if I can dig up the studies.

Edit: jeff short studied this

Antler Point Restrictions with Wyo Bio Jeff Short

Jeff Short is an expert on Antler Point Restrictions effectiveness in several western states. He explains how and when they help mule deer

www.rokslide.com

Come hunt Mule Deer in WA state and you will see first hand what a 3 point or better general hunt will do. Also at play is a November modern rifle season so not sure which one has more impact.

Btw, nonresidents are unlimited in case you are wondering.