Montana on the Upswing?

[Ben Lamb]

I have heard the same song, but that assumes leadership is listening to people (broadly speaking). Lots of evidence presented lately that they don't, or at least are only listening to a narrow group. For example, the view on shoulder seasons is broadly negative, but they expand them. I have seen a quite a few ideas on HT regarding restructuring seasons and tags to allow of Turkey-Day hunting tradition to continue and not have the same ridiculous pressure on the resource. Again, they aren't listening because they don't want to hear it.

FWP hears from a lot of people who enjoy the current season structure. Those opinions can be nuanced or simply stated that they like having 5 weeks to hunt. It's misperception that because the agency isn't doing what you want, that they're not listening.

They are listening, they just don't want to do what you want because there are likely to be graver consequences if they do, than if they don't. Our job is to gather enough folks together to shift their calculus and show that there's sufficient public support for change, since we can't purchase the decision like some others (cough Wilks Brothers & their lobby team).

 

[SAJ-99]

They are listening, they just don't want to do what you want because there are likely to be graver consequences if they do, than if they don't. Our job is to gather enough folks together to shift their calculus and show that there's sufficient public support for change, since we can't purchase the decision like some others (cough Wilks Brothers & their lobby team).

Sure, I understand that. But just say that and explain the "graver consequences". I heard plenty of legislators complain that shoulder seasons weren't working when trying to pass some other bat-$hit crazy idea, but expanding shoulder seasons was approved in a New-York minute. The group looks (and we both know, is getting) more and more political each year. How can a staff-level biologist or warden say anything negative when losing their job means moving to a new state. The hunting-Thanksgiving thing is both real and an excuse. I don't sense there is a high level of transperancy or an openness to new ideas at the higher levels of management.

I encourage all HT'er to give $$ to an organization like MWF that understands the lobbying aspect of how stuff gets done in MT. I doubt the trend will change.

 

[Hunting Wife]

All I know is that I thought last year was crowded, and this year has blown it out of the water as far as pressure. I expected to see fewer deer, given the drought and EHD. But it sure didn’t discourage folks from coming out and the level of pressure is absolutely unsustainable.

Plus all the surface shitting and TP all over the BLM roads. Really unbelievable this year. I’ve never seen anything like it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Sure, I understand that. But just say that and explain the "graver consequences". I heard plenty of legislators complain that shoulder seasons weren't working when trying to pass some other bat-$hit crazy idea, but expanding shoulder seasons was approved in a New-York minute. The group looks (and we both know, is getting) more and more political each year. How can a staff-level biologist or warden say anything negative when losing their job means moving to a new state. The hunting-Thanksgiving thing is both real and an excuse. I don't sense there is a high level of transperancy or an openness to new ideas at the higher levels of management.

I encourage all HT'er to give $$ to an organization like MWF that understands the lobbying aspect of how stuff gets done in MT. I doubt the trend will change.

Mostly it's in response to these folks: https://leg.mt.gov/

The collective is never as smart as the individuals, so of course they'll try to pass something poorly crafted & thought out next session and FWP is going to have to either decide to fight it or support it or sit idly by and let others fight their battles for them.

These legislative folks don't want to know what managers think, let alone what the average sportsman thinks because they've convinced themselves that they're the arbiters of what's right & wrong regardless of facts or information. They also control FWP's budget and have starved them in the face of unprecedented changes, then complained that the agency isn't doing enough.

Shoulder seasons started because a legislator (now Senate leadership) was pissed about there being too many elk and they had a great idea to bring back a management tool that had been left by the roadside a long time ago. Being a smart legislator, he made the bill non-mandatory after the agency talked to him about why the bill was a bad idea (this was in 2015), yet he persisted. The bill was vetoed and Bullock instructed the agency to do the original, short-term shoulder season, and then the commission approved the worst expansions in subsequent years, up until this commission, which seemingly takes marginal ideas and makes them worse.

To be sure, the agency is running roughshod over open-meetings laws, transparency issues and slow-walking FOIA requests in order to shut down public knowledge of what they're doing. Vengeance is the political currency of this administration in some ways. The perceived slights of the commission over the last 16 years, especially among those who would sell the last elk for a buck, means that the anger and hate they have is being enacted in terms of policies that punish the public while rewarding those who are currently in favor. FWP hasn't been free from political influence for a long time, no matter who the governor was. We all remember the fiasco that was Joe Maurier, right? Jeff Hagener tried to tell about this and many refused to listen because Bullock was in for 8 years.

 

[golfer]

Plus all the surface shitting and TP all over the BLM roads. Really unbelievable this year. I’ve never seen anything like it.

This is or was my biggest complaint after coming back from my deer hunt, TP everywhere. I also cannot wrap my head around how people think it is ok to take care of business literally on the road.

 

[golfer]

Im not sure about all the bios but our region 4 bio flies every year and documents numbers of deer, elk, and antelope

I am pretty sure its every other year. Last season setting proposal they only had data for every other year included in the phamplet I had asked for the missing data and was told it doesn't happen each year. But maybe policy has changed on that?

 

[Ben Lamb]

This is or was my biggest complaint after coming back from my deer hunt, TP everywhere. I also cannot wrap my head around how people think it is ok to take care of business literally on the road.

Those who have so little bowel management are the bane of everyone's existence. I mean seriously, it's not that hard to plan this out people. 2 cups of coffee in the morning & you hit the groover, then you hunt.

Amateur hour. Gross.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I am pretty sure its every other year. Last season setting proposal they only had data for every other year included in the phamplet I had asked for the missing data and was told it doesn't happen each year. But maybe policy has changed on that?

The aircraft that FWP operates were being choked for funding by the legislature for quite a while and they were coming to the end of their service life (IIRC), which lead to fewer folks in the av shop and fewer pilots to fly, and little to no money for contract flights, so yeah, they had to pick & choose.

 

[timmy]

Honestly if they aren’t going to adjust management off the counts it really is just a waste of money. They could probably get away with doing them every 10 years.

 

[brockel]

Wonder how much of region 7 is actually flown

 

[mtmuley]

Those who have so little bowel management are the bane of everyone's existence. I mean seriously, it's not that hard to plan this out people. 2 cups of coffee in the morning & you hit the groover, then you hunt.

Amateur hour. Gross.

Being regular is good. mtmuley

 

[Ben Lamb]

Being regular is good. mtmuley

 

[Nick87]

Plus all the surface shitting and TP all over the BLM roads. Really unbelievable this year. I’ve never seen anything like it.

Would you rather they bagged it and slow roasted it over the campfire?

 

[Hunting Wife]

Would you rather they bagged it and slow roasted it over the campfire?

Good point. At least we know who WASN’T pooping in the road, I guess.

 

[TheTone]

Stone glacier IG stories sure seem to be filled with folks with forkies and 2 year old three points wanting their free beer

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

I went out and helped a buddy who had a breaks elk tag a week ago. Same story there, we actually boated in to camp and found out of state people already there. We figured we should talk to them, they were totally happy because they had all shot small 4x4's and were leaving the next day. Anyhow we proceed to elk hunt the next 6 days. We at least 10 miles each day. I couldn't believe it, we saw very very few deer and the ones we did see were primarily small 2x2's, the biggest we saw in that whole time was a buck right on the lake rutting does and he only would have gone mid 130's. Sad because he will be dead by end of season because everyone out there just hunts from the boat. Ive been there in years past and usually you see many many deer. I honestly don't know what happened to them or if the drought just made them go elsewhere.

 

[Art Vandeley]

Hey now. We cold call like 11% of the people who purchased tags. That should be good enough

I’ve gotten those calls 4 months after the season on a Friday night when I can’t remember where I am. I’m sure that “data” is real useful

 

[brockel]

I’ve gotten those calls 4 months after the season on a Friday night when I can’t remember where I am

From a college kid who when told what district just files it under region 7 so the biologists have to guess where it was. And that’s the honest truth.

 

[tom338]

Did you see a lot of bones and skeletons of deer?

Not 1 skeleton. So I do not know what happened. Did they get EHD or did they move. I the spots we usually hunted in the past that had deer we checked and there was water in the stock ponds. And where there was 2 spots with what we would consider the "normal" amount of deer it seemed no different. Around one private ranch there have in all the years past a nice herd of mule deer--25-30 head. Not one deer seen there this year. And that wasn't the only spot. When you don't live in an area you really can only guess as to what is going on. We did talk to one local rancher. Said it was really dry but nothing about deer die off.

 

[longbow51]

Best part is since yalls FWP doesn't actually do population studies no one can prove the deer have decreased

Talked to a buddy of mine in Oklahoma last night. they have e-tags, when you tag, you take a photo and text to FWP. Seems pretty simple.