Montana mule deer

texwest44 said:
What stops people from killing the same kind of deer in the same amounts, but stretching it over a week instead of a month?
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Weather, unexpected commitments or cancellations, positioning the season away from the rut, for starters. The last factor might be the most impactful.

In MN the deer rifle season is short, but during the peak rut. In areas with good access there is rarely good age class because the older bucks are vulnerable and get smoked.

In IA gun season is post-rut and your pick of a 5-day first season or a 9-day second season. Most hunting is done by party drives and many mature deer slip away and hang out in sanctuaries to ride out the season, creating a decent age class. Most years I don’t tag a gun buck.

I’ve scouted MD units in Western states that have +\- 1 week gun seasons. There are mature animals there. Hunt as hard as you might, it’s a whole lot easier to turn up empty when you have 1 weekend to seal the deal, especially if the weather is crappy.

It could be a toss-up if MT hunters have more of an appetite for earlier, shorter deer seasons or more LQ units. Opportunity seems to be king except for a minority subset. Everything seems to be trending in the wrong direction for the MT self-guided public land hunter who is willing to make significant sacrifices to hunt an older age class of deer.
 
Unfortunately, polling is the only way to get input from the crowd. How can you possibly gauge desires, values, and opinions without going out and asking? And unfortunately, there are huge numbers of people who know good and well that those DQ ice creams are an issue with their well-padded middle sections, but how many people change their habits without some sort of goading or outside negative reinforcement? Until some doctor or the missus tells em to knock it off, DQ is the scene, man.

The goading is where most of my questions lie. It seems like we're subscribing to the idea that Montana hunters will eventually need to "learn the errors of their ways", so to speak, and I'm not sure I can see that happening without much, much goading from the state. What other methods could be used to convince them to make the change?

I know no one is specifically asking for a specific 10 day season, but "shortening the season to CO style windows of time" seems to be a reference point in this thread.

And lets not go nuts with lumping me in with everyone, btw. The only young deer I take home are the ones the game wardens let me have from poaching cases and such.
 
ElkFever2 said:
Weather, unexpected commitments or cancellations, positioning the season away from the rut, for starters. The last factor might be the most impactful.

In MN the deer rifle season is short, but during the peak rut. In areas with good access there is rarely good age class because the older bucks are vulnerable and get smoked.

In IA gun season is post-rut and your pick of a 5-day first season or a 9-day second season. Most hunting is done by party drives and many mature deer slip away and hang out in sanctuaries to ride out the season, creating a decent age class. Most years I don’t tag a gun buck.

I’ve scouted MD units in Western states that have +\- 1 week gun seasons. There are mature animals there. Hunt as hard as you might, it’s a whole lot easier to turn up empty when you have 1 weekend to seal the deal, especially if the weather is crappy.

It could be a toss-up if MT hunters have more of an appetite for earlier, shorter deer seasons or more LQ units. Opportunity seems to be king except for a minority subset. Everything seems to be trending in the wrong direction for the MT self-guided public land hunter who is willing to make significant sacrifices to hunt an older age class of deer.
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Your first point is the only one I could see that would really make the change. Not just shortening the rifle season, but moving it in general, and away from the rut. Granted I've only lived here a few seasons, but weather does NOT seem to be a huge obstacle to MT hunters. And they plan ahead, too.

I would also agree with your last point about general opportunity being a big driver here. So many people I know just do not care about how big a deer is, they're more focused on getting it home. Not sure what to do about that kind of mentality outside of not allow people to adhere to it.
 
texwest44 said:
Your first point is the only one I could see that would really make the change. Not just shortening the rifle season, but moving it in general, and away from the rut. Granted I've only lived here a few seasons, but weather does NOT seem to be a huge obstacle to MT hunters. And they plan ahead, too.

I would also agree with your last point about general opportunity being a big driver here. So many people I know just do not care about how big a deer is, they're more focused on getting it home. Not sure what to do about that kind of mentality outside of not allow people to adhere to it.
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I am originally from Michigan and all we had were tiny deer it seemed like, at least in Newago County. Few years ago DNR put a 4 pt on one side limit to the deer. My dad has been spamming me with almost 20 individual bucks that look to be well over 200lbs on our 150 acre farm.

I wonder if montana should put antler point restrictions on mule deer to help the young ones get at least a few years under their belts. I think that might help the population rebound a bit more as well. Not everybody fills a tag for probably 3 or 4 years but the quality of the hunt will be really good in 3 to 4 years time i would think?

Is there a antler point restriction in any of the LE units?

Also our rifle season starts in the middle of november, Archery season is still going on during the rut. Michigan does a lot of stupid stuff in regards to game management but the deer seasons I think they have pretty much nailed.
 
I don't think point restrictions would help with mule deer as it would target the 4+ point bucks with good genetics and a lot of the 3 points would be doing the breeding. If guys still want to hunt every year and want to avoid more limited entry units, even though I don't think that would be so bad, I think a change in season length and timing would be the most beneficial and still allow opportunity for everyone. Whitetail and mule deer need to be managed separately for most units as well since they're different species and all.
 
In TX where I grew up, where the deer only get to be the size of house cats regardless of how old they are, there were both point and width restrictions on deer in most of the state. It's been so many years I couldn't say what it is now, but I'm sure most of them are still in place.

I spent several years in WA, which is the most restrictive state I've ever hunted in (short, staggered seasons and point/width restrictions), and the deer there are... ok to pretty good. The biggest mule deer I ever saw in WA rival the bigger mule deer that I see here in MT, but I see way more animals in MT in general compared to WA. And the blacktails, well, they're just kind of small like Texas whitetails.

I don't know of any MT units with point or width restrictions for deer.

I couldn't possibly know the solution to the issue, but I feel like it would definitely require some combination of restrictions and changes in culture. However the heck that would happen.
 
MTLabrador said:
Antler point restrictions for mule deer are nothing but a feel good measure put in place so the public feels like something is being done. All they do is put more pressure on the “older” age class of animals.

They do increase buck:doe ratios in the short term, but not in the long term.
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Yup.
 
If your goal is bigger deer antler point restrictions are a disaster when it comes to mule deer. Go back to the bell curve. APR shift all the pressure to the deer in the half of the bell curve with the best genetics. Bucks with the potential to grow big are shot as two or three year olds and the bucks with poor genetics are protected all there life.
Now if you went the other way and went three point or less APR you could soon grow some bigger deer.
As much as I would like to see FWP manage for bigger deer, I do not think it is necessarily there job to do so. I view FWP goal should be for a stable healthy herd with good buck doe ratios and age class. Sadly this is not what I am seeing on large blocks of public land.
 
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So that would be more like a rule common in fishing, restrict harvest of large fish with the intention of keeping them as a brood population. But those are often coupled with additional restrictions of minimal sizes, too, to let smaller fish grow.

Would a solution possibly look like a combination of rifle season shortening, APRs towards a specific "medium-low number" of antler points/width, and possibly additional draw restrictions or something?
 
huntin24/7 said:
I don't think point restrictions would help with mule deer as it would target the 4+ point bucks with good genetics and a lot of the 3 points would be doing the breeding. If guys still want to hunt every year and want to avoid more limited entry units, even though I don't think that would be so bad, I think a change in season length and timing would be the most beneficial and still allow opportunity for everyone. Whitetail and mule deer need to be managed separately for most units as well since they're different species and all.
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I do realize they are different species. I'm just sharing what I have observed with point restrictions in an area that traditionally only had small bucks running around. I feel antler restrictions on elk would help too. Rather then 4 inch brow tines make it 6 or 8 inches (Just spit balling here).

However I do agree a bigger impact would be and adjustment to season dates. If you must have a season during the rut, make it an archery season. Then shorten the rifle season. Will it be a zoo during that shortened rifle season, yea probably but is it any less of a zoo during opening weekend currently in Montana? Not really IMO.
 
Restrictions based on size aren’t going to help grow older deer.

We have to kill less mule deer bucks per year if we want a better age class.

That means either limited entry permits or shorter seasons when the deer are not as vulnerable as they are when rutting.
Cutting the last two weeks of the season would help a lot.
 
The northeast corner had a shortened buck season, is there any data regarding the effectiveness?

Also a large percentage of deer are hit by vehicles in MT, last numbers showed MT second behind Virginia. Politically, any increased collisions is a challenge for fwp.
 
Gerald Martin said:
Restrictions based on size aren’t going to help grow older deer.

We have to kill less mule deer bucks per year if we want a better age class.

That means either limited entry permits or shorter seasons when the deer are not as vulnerable as they are when rutting.
Cutting the last two weeks of the season would help a lot.
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This, but I’d move the season out of November completely. October 1-20th would be a huge improvement.
 
Dakotakid said:
The northeast corner had a shortened buck season, is there any data regarding the effectiveness?

Also a large percentage of deer are hit by vehicles in MT, last numbers showed MT second behind Virginia. Politically, any increased collisions is a challenge for fwp.
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The first 5-6 years I lived in this 3 week area was the 3 week season. Significantly more 3+ year old deer on public/block then. It took a couple years to notice the decline in age. I first noticed that those areas anyone could hunt that might have 1-3 of those 150ish bucks every year with the occasional buck older than that started having 0-1 of those and now I notice that you have to look over probably 100 1-2 year old bucks on those properties on average to see a muley buck of that size/age I mentioned.
 
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