Montana mule deer rant

[MTGomer]

I’m tired of being the butt of the joke,

Is this before or after you write the punchlines?

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Is this before or after you write the punchlines?

Good luck this season Gomer.. I’m not gonna do this anymore man. Seriously I hope you have a good winter, and happy holidays bud.

 

[brockel]

I’d love for all these rants to slowly come to an end and everyone be happy. But I don’t know that’ll ever happen, there’ll always be something we as outdoorsman think we can do better than the people in charge.

I hope these types of rants always continue because that means people care and are always wanting to improve things. When the rants stop that means people have given up.

 

[richmondrat]

I was looking at Unit 362 for mule deer 2023. Any thoughts on that particular area? I hear the wolves/grizzlies down there can be brutal for mules.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I hope these types of rants always continue because that means people care and are always wanting to improve things. When the rants stop that means people have given up.

Understood.. I’ll “butt-out” if I’m not already

 

[BuzzH]

Listen I’d be with you. I am a law abiding citizen and whatever changes they make I’ll abide. I would like to see the numbers and overall size increase, and most importantly I’d love for all these rants to slowly come to an end and everyone be happy. But I don’t know that’ll ever happen, there’ll always be something we as outdoorsman think we can do better than the people in charge. I don’t disagree that numbers have gone down even just in the two years I started arguing with you guys…
I’m tired of being the butt of the joke, and I’m finding that many of you may be right about what used to be and what could be… and I AM learning from you. In a roundabout childish way sometimes.. some of the folks I initially disliked and disagreed with, (like you personally at first) I’ve learned to watch and listen to, as I enjoy your personal posts very much and pay close attention to the facts that you cite in your posts. I appreciate the more omniscient unbiased approach in laying down the numbers…

First of all, there are no unbiased numbers as the FWP hasn't ever, in my lifetime, really understood the basics. Harvest stats are all over the map, population estimates are out in the ditch, and they don't even understand the basics like migration corridors.

So I won't apologize for not taking the word of "those in charge". They've proven beyond a doubt their data and facts are suspect at best.

When the human population of Montana increases to over 1 million and the season structure hasn't changed since my father passed hunters safety in 1957, I have little regard for putting much trust in "those in charge".

When I've watched every form of big-game hunting decline since I first hunted Montana in 1979, I have little regard for putting trust in "those in charge".

Those in charge have done about zero but do the bidding of landowners, outfitters, and political favors in regard to Management of Montana's wildlife.

Who I do put my trust in, is some of the guys/gals on this board that spend a significant amount of time hunting Montana and have been for decades. I also trust what I can find in my hunting journals, what I've personally seen transpire in Montana in my lifetime.

If you think this is all about just trophy quality, you're not reading the same things I am...nor seeing the same things I am.

This is literally about what MTGomer and Greenhorn pointed out, vast areas of public lands that are biological deserts for big-game. Areas that historically held good, strong, and huntable numbers of big-game.

I can give you plenty of examples of how poorly things have been managed by those in charge. Flying unit 202 a few years back west of Missoula and finding 8 elk, same unit with a weekend check station in a major drainage there and checking ZERO elk...yet still having an 11 week general season? That's who I should put my "trust" in? Don't think so.

How about the mountain goats in the 'root. First several years I applied for a tag there, 75 goat tags issued, last year, 1. That's who I should put my "trust" in?

How about flying the entire west side of the Bob Marshall and finding 202 elk? That's who I should trust is making good management decisions?

How about the data for the unit I've hunted since 1979, including this fall. The population estimates from a few years back said they harvested 86 bulls in a unit that had an estimated bull population of 70. Still wondering how you shoot 86 of 70 available bulls. If those "in charge" are just going to make up numbers, at least make them believable made up numbers.

Is it good management when the biologists for the area West of Missoula says, "well, when the elk population is this low, killing what few bulls are left really doesn't matter"?

Yeah, we're all just whiners and "those in charge" are just doing a great job...

 

[TheJason]

Is it good management when the biologists for the area West of Missoula says, "well, when the elk population is this low, killing what few bulls are left really doesn't matter"?

When should we start talking about the culture of extending seasons in Montana?

 

[BuzzH]

When should we start talking about the culture of extending seasons in Montana?

I thought we already did with the late muzzleloader seasons?

I'm thinking we need to talk about year round seasons at this point, I mean, what difference does it make?

 

[Flatbrimmer]

First of all, there are no unbiased numbers as the FWP hasn't ever, in my lifetime, really understood the basics. Harvest stats are all over the map, population estimates are out in ditch, and they don't even understand the basics like migration corridors.

So I won't apologize for not taking the word of "those in charge". They've proven beyond a doubt they're data and facts are suspect at best.

When the human population of Montana increases to over 1 million and the season structure hasn't changed since my father passed hunters safety in 1957, I have little regard for putting much trust in "those in charge".

When I've watched every form of big-game hunting decline since I first hunted Montana in 1979, I have little regard for putting trust in "those in charge".

Those in charge have done about zero but do the bidding of landowners, outfitters, and political favors in regard to Management of Montana's wildlife.

Who I do put my trust in, is some of the guys/gals on this board that spend a significant amount of time hunting Montana and have been for decades. I also trust what I can find in my hunting journals, what I've personally seen transpire in Montana in my lifetime.

If you think this is all about just trophy quality, you're not reading the same things I am...nor seeing the same things I am.

This is literally about what MTGomer and Greenhorn pointed out, vast areas of public lands that are biological deserts for big-game. Areas that historically held good, strong, and huntable numbers of big-game.

I can give you plenty of examples of how poorly things have been managed by those in charge. Flying unit 202 a few years back west of Missoula and finding 8 elk, same unit with a weekend check station in a major drainage there and checking ZERO elk...yet still having an 11 week general season? That's who I should put my "trust" in? Don't think so.

How about the mountain goats in the 'root. First several years I applied for a tag there, 75 goat tags issued, last year, 1. That's who I should put my "trust" in?

How about flying the entire west side of the Bob Marshall and finding 202 elk? That's who I should trust is making good management decisions?

How about the data for the unit I've hunted since 1979, including this fall. The population estimates from a few years back said they harvested 86 bulls in a unit that had an estimated bull population of 70. Still wondering how you shoot 86 of 70 available bulls. If those "in charge" are just going to make up numbers, at least make them believable made up numbers.

Is it good management when the biologists for the area West of Missoula says, "well, when the elk population is this low, killing what few bulls are left really doesn't matter"?

Yeah, we're all just whiners and "those in charge" are just doing a great job...

I understand buzz. Thanks. You had to take time out to type all that.. I’ve read it before and I read it again. I just typed in how many elk in the bob and it says the sun ranch can’t accommodate all 2700 elk they counted.. what’s that about?
I hear you about the biological desert thing. I’m witnessing it happen also and like I said earlier, I’ve noticed what y’all have been griping about - just in the 1.5 or two years ive been reading and arguing with ya… I wasn’t even a twinkle in the eye of my mother yet when many of you started hunting. I’m trying to shut up and argue less. I only try to stand up against the condescending, less constructive kind of arguments. I do want to learn, and I love to read… happy holidays.

 

[TheJason]

I thought we already did with the late muzzleloader seasons?

I'm thinking we need to talk about year round seasons at this point, I mean, what difference does it make?

Well, yeah, there is that pink elephant. I was referring more to this several times in the middle 2000s when hunters called incessantly, wanting to know if FWP was going to extend the season because the “snow hadn’t push the elk down yet “. @MTLabrador and I were talking about this a couple weeks ago, and wondering how many other states are so $*)Q!#@$ dysfunctional that they would extend the season to bow to the will of the people in needing to kill their elk.

 

[BuzzH]

I understand buzz. Thanks. You had to take time out to type all that.. I’ve read it before and I read it again. I just typed in how many elk in the bob and it says the sun ranch can’t accommodate all 2700 elk they counted.. what’s that about?
I hear you about the biological desert thing. I’m witnessing it happen also and like I said earlier, I’ve noticed what y’all have been griping about - just in the 1.5 or two years ive been reading and arguing with ya… I wasn’t even a twinkle in the eye of my mother yet when many of you started hunting. I’m trying to shut up and argue less. I only try to stand up against the condescending, less constructive kind of arguments. I do want to learn, and I love to read… happy holidays.

You want the flight data for the West side? Here you go, tell me all about the 2700 elk that are infesting the Bob:

HD Area Cows Calves Ylg Adult Tot Uncl Total Calves per 100 cows Bulls per 100 Cows 150 Danaher Meadows 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A Youngs Cr 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A Basin* 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A Big Prairie - FlatIron 59 6 2 0 2 0 67 N/A N/A Burnt Cr & White River Flats 79 4 0 0 0 0 83 N/A N/A Black Bear - Big Salmon 27 2 0 5 5 13 52 N/A N/A HD 150 Total 165 12 2 5 7 13 202 7 4 140 Bunker Cr 0 0 0 3 3 0 3 N/A N/A Spotted Bear Mtn - L. Twin Cr 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A Dry Parks 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 N/A N/A HD 140 Total 1 1 0 3 3 0 3 N/A N/A 150/140

Grand Total 166 13 2 8 10 13 202 8 6

I think you're referring to the Sun River WMA, and a lot of the elk on the East side don't all come out of the Bob.

 

[BuzzH]

Well, yeah, there is that pink elephant. I was referring more to this several times in the middle 2000s when hunters called incessantly, wanting to know if FWP was going to extend the season because the “snow hadn’t push the elk down yet “. @MTLabrador and I were talking about this a couple weeks ago, and wondering how many other states are so $*)Q!#@$ dysfunctional that they would extend the season to bow to the will of the people in needing to kill their elk.

Come on man, you can't "stock pile" elk on public land.

I remember about 10 years ago, my brother had a cow permit in our area and they extended the season for the cow permit holders. In their infinitive wisdom they also allowed the cow permit holders to shoot bulls. The "theory" was that if they didn't offer it as an any elk extension, nobody would hunt it just for a cow.

I agree, Wyoming has good years and bad years harvest wise due to the weather. I've never even heard talk of a season extension when things are tough. Its usually really good hunting after the down years...seems Wyoming CAN stock pile elk on public land.

Mysterious, I know.

 

[brocksw]

The population estimates from a few years back said they harvested 86 bulls in a unit that had an estimated bull population of 70. Still wondering how you shoot 86 of 70 available bulls. If those "in charge" are just going to make up numbers, at least make them believable made up numbers.

As indicated by recent events, that's math only I could do.

 

[rogerthat]

G produces them much more often than occasionally. My buddy shot a buck as you describe in Eastern MT 2 yrs ago, 200 5/8 (NT), he found a set of its shed that were hard white. That buck lab aged at 4.5, so the sheds were as a 2.5yr old and were 160" ish....

My point was Montana has good habitat in places.

 

[rogerthat]

I understand buzz. Thanks. You had to take time out to type all that.. I’ve read it before and I read it again. I just typed in how many elk in the bob and it says the sun ranch can’t accommodate all 2700 elk they counted.. what’s that about?
I hear you about the biological desert thing. I’m witnessing it happen also and like I said earlier, I’ve noticed what y’all have been griping about - just in the 1.5 or two years ive been reading and arguing with ya… I wasn’t even a twinkle in the eye of my mother yet when many of you started hunting. I’m trying to shut up and argue less. I only try to stand up against the condescending, less constructive kind of arguments. I do want to learn, and I love to read… happy holidays.

My takeaway @FoodIsMemories is that you’re putting your 1.5-2 years of experience up against guys with 30-50 years hunting in Montana. I like your optimism. I have told you that before. All this ranting doesn’t mean you personally can’t keep your optimism and keep doing your thing. But these super experienced guys are ranting for a reason and it’s because Montana FWP hasn’t done their job. So when you weigh in expect the buzzsaw(literally) if you don’t have pretty solid logic or proof

 

[Brittany Chukarman]

5 years of no rut hunting and public land doe tags and you’d see a drastic change IMO

 

[DFS]

Opportunity to hunt isn’t going to mean a whole heck of a lot when there is no game to hunt. Next thing you know you will be hunting in subdivisions because those were the only deer you could find.

 

[Bambistew]

Hunters have a really hard time distinguishing between opportunity and success until forced to figure it out. You're not going to please all hunters, and FWP needs to stop trying.

You guys are solving the world problems. FWP will just reduce for tags next year. They heard you loud and clear!

I still believe this same argument will be going on 10 years from now. MT hunters won't give up shit.

I'm going to shoot every deer I can get a tag for next year. If you can't beat em, join em.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I know… you’re exactly right. Thank you for not being condescending.. I must remember God gave us two eyes two ears and only one Mouth for a reason.. to look and listen twice as much as we speak… I’ll shut up.. analyze and interpret..

My takeaway @FoodIsMemories is that you’re putting your 1.5-2 years of experience up against guys with 30-50 years hunting in Montana. I like your optimism. I have told you that before. All this ranting doesn’t mean you personally can’t keep your optimism and keep doing your thing. But these super experienced guys are ranting for a reason and it’s because Montana FWP hasn’t done their job. So when you weigh in expect the buzzsaw(literally) if you don’t have pretty solid logic or proof

I must ask though, If I went out and got lucky enough to get close enough to shoot my very first bull with a muzzleloader, would I be up schitts creek for pounding the elk too long? or would I be congratulated…? Should I feel bad for the elk or what people might think? This is an honest question..

 

[rogerthat]

I know… you’re exactly right. Thank you for not being condescending.. I must remember God gave us two eyes two ears and only one Mouth for a reason.. to look and listen twice as much as we speak… I’ll shut up.. analyze and interpret..

I must ask though, If I went out and got lucky enough to get close enough to shoot my very first bull with a muzzleloader, would I be up schitts creek for pounding the elk too long? or would I be congratulated…? Should I feel bad for the elk or what people might think? This is an honest question..

My answer. Hammer them. You got a tag and a season. The rest is up to you.