Montana mule deer rant

[antlerradar]

I am curious what others think about this. If true it would explain the disappearance of mule deer from public land over time.

The Rose Petal Hypothesis: Why Deer Hunting Spots Go Dry

We’ve all heard it or said it: that deer spot just ain’t like it used to be. You might speculate that too many hunters are going in there, or predators have increased, or the deer have just moved—but the lack of deer definitely didn’t have anything to do with simply an unlucky day out with a...

www.themeateater.com

The biggest change in my life time is the migration of mule deer from the Public hills to the private river bottoms. When I was young the mule deer were in the hills, Whitetails on the river. Now the Mule deer are right down on the river and the hills have very few. This rose petal deal would explain this nicely.

 

[antlerradar]

Hank is our light at the end of the tunnel.

LOL

Very true if you are waking down a tunnel with two parallel steal rails.

 

[antlerradar]

you just simply can't blow holes in an #oldwarrior with the IQ of peanut during the rut by doing any of those activities.

View attachment 252510

That guy has big hands

 

[antlerradar]

I would agree. But how would you explain such small differences in success rates between MT and WY?

It could be that WY has a more healthy deer herd and that more deer are on accessible land. I agree with @JLS, Take away the rut and Montana's success rate would nose dive. Over time though hunters would adapt. Can you breath through your mouth and bitch and moan at the same time?

 

[antlerradar]

Right off interwebs.. sure some may be private but all good bucks.. they’re not Sasquatch. And they do come into public

We have a different idea of what a really big deer is.

 

[brockel]

Right off interwebs.. sure some may be private but all good bucks.. they’re not Sasquatch. And they do come into public

You aren’t helping yourself

 

[sclancy27]

So all done by Oct 20. No mule deer hunting after that?


What about choosing weapon? So, to archery hunt the rut, you'd have to give up a rifle tag all together and committ to archery all fall or at least for your special permit unit/season. Kind of like a special permit archery elk, but for mule deer in November and no general tag to fall back on.

I think we should start with the structure our elk seasons and special permits are now. I don't think we need to jump into CO "pick your weapon/pick your season" immediately, not to mention that would be a non-starter among 98% of resident hunters.

 

[sclancy27]

We have a different idea of what a really big deer is.

What is a really big deer? Habitat has an enormous effect on antler size in mule deer. That's why in Region G they get 180"+ 3 yr olds.

 

[sclancy27]

I really want to get a handle on what everyone thinks the problem is, without a tangible problem (or problems) to solve how can we get targeted solutions? So are the problems:

1. Mule deer numbers are down, not just acutely, but chronically. What is the base level we are comparing this too?
2. Mule deer age class is not acceptable. What would be an acceptable strata for age class?
3. Mule deer (buck) size is not acceptable. What is an acceptable size curve for mule deer bucks?
4. A combo of the above or something different entirely?

We must 2 realize that 2 and 3 are somewhat related, but habitat quality can create old deer that don't have big antlers. And, given that habitat quality can affect the genetics of a herd over a short period of time, lack of quality habitat can present (on the surface) as an age class issue when it is really a habitat issue.

I think step #1, no matter what the problem, is to really push FWP into mandatory reporting (for everything). We need some really good data to get a handle on what is actually happening out there instead of throwing out what we all think is happening.

 

[brocksw]

@neffa3 and @JLS, I'd like to issue a public apology for wasting your time yesterday. I did some retracing to figure out how my numbers could be so far off. I had the number 61% for MT success rates in my head and felt confident that it was correct. It was, sort of. It appears I took total success from "all_deer" and attributed that 61% success to tag numbers and not hunters, which is how Montana appears to record harvest statistics. My bad. I'm an idiot.

 

[rogerthat]

What is a really big deer? Habitat has an enormous effect on antler size in mule deer. That's why in Region G they get 180"+ 3 yr olds.

Most every area in Montana can occasionally grow a 180 plus 3 year old. A lot of the bucks that would hit this mark at 3 are shot at 2.

 

[sclancy27]

Most every area in Montana can occasionally grow a 180 plus 3 year old. A lot of the bucks that would hit this mark at 3 are shot at 2.

G produces them much more often than occasionally. My buddy shot a buck as you describe in Eastern MT 2 yrs ago, 200 5/8 (NT), he found a set of its shed that were hard white. That buck lab aged at 4.5, so the sheds were as a 2.5yr old and were 160" ish....

 

[Flatbrimmer]

All 3 of those mule deer are little

Around 2013, even though it was already in serious decline, I would pass dozens of deer like that in a season. Lucky to find one now.

If you want to disagree that size is all relative I’d say you just like to argue.

if ders no more turdy pointerz why would t you shoot a big 4x4 if that’s all anyone’s finding these days? If that’s all that’s left quit bitchin about making the whole state quit hunting so it can MAYBE be like it was in your GREAT GREAT GRANDPAS day huh?

Shoot your buck and quit your whining. “There’s no big ones left”
“FWP management at its finest”
Should add your own slogans to the list of reasons people are shooting average mule deer. You guys whine more than a child

 

[brockel]

I think we should start with the structure our elk seasons and special permits are now. I don't think we need to jump into CO "pick your weapon/pick your season" immediately, not to mention that would be a non-starter among 98% of resident hunters.

I think we need to quit worrying about what the residents want and do what’s best for the mule deer.

 

[brockel]

If that’s all that’s left quit bitchin about making the whole state quit hunting so it can MAYBE be like it was in your GREAT GREAT GRANDPAS day huh?

5 years of no rut hunting and public land doe tags and you’d see a drastic change IMO

 

[DFS]

Make the whole state quit hunting? You can hunt mountain lion deer elk bears grouse pheasants ducks geese wolves. If that’s not enough you can hunt coyotes and bobcats. Most of the year you can hunt something how much opportunity do you need? I certainly don’t have enough time to do all that. Mule deer are in trouble not unreasonable to try to help them out or maybe we should shoot them until they are gone?

 

[MTGomer]

If you want to disagree that size is all relative I’d say you just like to argue.

if ders no more turdy pointerz why would t you shoot a big 4x4 if that’s all anyone’s finding these days? If that’s all that’s left quit bitchin about making the whole state quit hunting so it can MAYBE be like it was in your GREAT GREAT GRANDPAS day huh?

Shoot your buck and quit your whining. “There’s no big ones left”
“FWP management at its finest”
Should add your own slogans to the list of reasons people are shooting average mule deer. You guys whine more than a child

If you want to say you’re a shitty hunter with no standards, just say that.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

5 years of no rut hunting and public land doe tags and you’d see a drastic change IMO

Listen I’d be with you. I am a law abiding citizen and whatever changes they make I’ll abide. I would like to see the numbers and overall size increase, and most importantly I’d love for all these rants to slowly come to an end and everyone be happy. But I don’t know that’ll ever happen, there’ll always be something we as outdoorsman think we can do better than the people in charge. I don’t disagree that numbers have gone down even just in the two years I started arguing with you guys…
I’m tired of being the butt of the joke, and I’m finding that many of you may be right about what used to be and what could be… and I AM learning from you. In a roundabout childish way sometimes.. some of the folks I initially disliked and disagreed with, (like you personally at first) I’ve learned to watch and listen to, as I enjoy your personal posts very much and pay close attention to the facts that you cite in your posts. I appreciate the more omniscient unbiased approach in laying down the numbers…

 

[TheJason]

Rational logic appears to have left the station.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Rational logic appears to have left the station.

Who is he???