Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[cgasner1]

If hunting mule deer during elk season is a problem or cause for concern - why is the same thing during antelope season a non-issue?

Think theres a lot more r6/r7 antelope tags than elk permits. What about the "incidental take" here?

Antelope tags are managed. The difference is the weather and the rut. Your just kinda throwing shit at the wall this morning to see what sticks do better

 

[Forkyfinder]

Kill all the forkies you want that isn’t the point.

Would you address mine (the point)?

If the concern is incidental take becauae of another species - i want to understand the argument entirely. Antelope hunters also taking mule deer is a valid concern.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Antelope tags are managed. The difference is the weather and the rut. Your just kinda throwing shit at the wall this morning to see what sticks do better

Elk permits are managed in almost all of r 6 and r 7 - or are you referring to cow tags?

 

[cgasner1]

Would you address mine (the point)?

If the concern is incidental take becauae of another species - i want to understand the argument entirely. Antelope hunters also taking mule deer is a valid concern.

It is but hunting deer in October is totally different than November. That is the difference. You’re aware of that. I’ve killed my 3 biggest bucks during antelope season.

 

[cgasner1]

Elk permits are managed in almost all of r 6 and r 7 - or are you referring to cow tags?

7 you can kill a cow on a general if you know where to look

 

[Forkyfinder]

It is but hunting deer in October is totally different than November. That is the difference. You’re aware of that. I’ve killed my 3 biggest bucks during antelope season.

I am. Im also aware that theres a lot more antelope permits than elk permits. Im also NOT aware of many folks heading east SPECIFICALLY to hunt cow elk.

If hunting them is half as successful, but theres twice as many tags (i.e. 2 x 0.5 =1) we are unchanged.

 

[Gulf of America]

Would you address mine (the point)?

If the concern is incidental take becauae of another species - i want to understand the argument entirely. Antelope hunters also taking mule deer is a valid concern.

I think the likelihood of running into a shooter buck (whatever any given hunter determines that is) while elk hunting now is currently higher than running into a shooter buck out in the same fields that antelope are hanging out in early October. The two times I've antelope hunted (fingers crossed for a third this year!), I see tons of does out in similar areas but bucks aren't out being dumbshits yet.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I think the likelihood of running into a shooter buck (whatever any given hunter determines that is) while elk hunting now is currently higher than running into a shooter buck out in the same fields that antelope are hanging out in early October. The two times I've antelope hunted (fingers crossed for a third this year!), I see tons of does out in similar areas but bucks aren't out being dumbshits yet.

I dont disagree at all. Its just a matter of ratios though right?

Even if its harder to kill a deer in october - more people doing it at a less effective rate could result in less, the same, or more harvest. All depends on numbers.

 

[cgasner1]

I am. Im also aware that theres a lot more antelope permits than elk permits. Im also NOT aware of many folks heading east SPECIFICALLY to hunt cow elk.

If hunting them is half as successful, but theres twice as many tags (i.e. 2 x 0.5 =1) we are unchanged.

If you wanna see a different structure start pushing for one. This is what we have put together your aware of why it’s the way it is.

 

[Forkyfinder]

If you wanna see a different structure start pushing for one. This is what we have put together your aware of why it’s the way it is.

I am simply asking the question - was it not posed in the committee meetings?

 

[cgasner1]

I am simply asking the question - was it not posed in the committee meetings?

It was actually a huge concern of mine

 

[Gerald Martin]

@Gerald Martin how many antelope vs elk permits in r6 and r7?

How are you certain no forkies will be harmed?

Who is pointing out the concern of incidental harvest in regions 6 and 7 specifically?

Contextually, all I can recall is the concerns about incidental harvest included the entire state not just 6 and 7 as you separated out. Seems like that’s purposely taking that argument out of the context it was made for the sake of making a counterpoint.
What is your end argument?

For the purposes of making your point, I’m sure you can look up the numbers of antelope tags vs. a combination of antlerless and ES elk permits.

I will say that under our current proposal, hunters will be having to choose mule deer as their target species and folks who choose mule deer and plan to head to 6 or 7 are going to shoot their deer whether it’s on a specific deer hunt or in combination with an antelope license. I don’t know why would be an issue?

I’m not sure what the overall point you’re trying to make is. Are you trying to show that under our proposal more mule deer will be killed in 6 and 7 because of incidental take during antelope season than are currently being killed under the current season structure?

 

[Forkyfinder]

It was actually a huge concern of mine

Were your concerns relieved?

I see pros and cons in that regard.

Are you trying to show that under our proposal more mule deer will be killed in 6 and 7 because of incidental take during antelope season than are currently being killed under the current season structure?

No - theres no way at all to show that. Everything is hypothetical right? Theres very little data to work off of without a lot of assumptions. Like i said - im not sure how effective a mule deer hunter is in october vs november. I could have killed plenty opening weekend in october over the years. If its twice as hard to do, but 4 times as many people are doing it (antelope vs rifle elk permits), id imagine theres more deer dead.

I am only raising the question, to be clear, because i was professing my love for the proposal (mostly for its benefit to r 6 and r 7) and someone hit me with that and i didnt have a good argument to return. I figured there would be one besides accusing me of "attacking people"

 

[Gerald Martin]

Okay. Apologies for taking it the wrong way.

To my knowledge, the argument for concern over incidental harvest of mule deer during elk season was advanced in the context of overall incidental harvest across the entire state. I think it’s a valid concern and is certainly a substantial portion of deer harvest in the western half of the state.

Incidental deer harvest over antelope season is a valid concern for consideration but numbers showing one thing or another would be purely speculative at this point.

In regions 6 and 7 specifically, deer are the primary target. If antelope are the primary target then mule deer harvest will require at least some focused attention by a hunter since they will be required to choose mule deer in order to hunt them.

My guess is that since the deer permit draw happens in April and many folks will be buying tags and making their deer choice for general season then, the antelope draw in June will have negligible impact on the total amount of mule deer harvested since mule deer have already been selected and will be hunted regardless of whether the hunter also holds an antelope license.

Of course many hunters will probably do a combination hunt if they hold both licenses, but IMO many of those hunters are going to be hunting mule deer in 6 and 7 regardless of whether they drew an antelope license or not.

Again, any numbers are pure speculation because I don’t know how the data that exists could be interpreted properly to support either a pro or a con argument.

 

[cgasner1]

Okay. Apologies for taking it the wrong way.

To my knowledge, the argument for concern over incidental harvest of mule deer during elk season was advanced in the context of overall incidental harvest across the entire state. I think it’s a valid concern and is certainly a substantial portion of deer harvest in the western half of the state.

Incidental deer harvest over antelope season is a valid concern for consideration but numbers showing one thing or another would be purely speculative at this point.

In regions 6 and 7 specifically, deer are the primary target. If antelope are the primary target then mule deer harvest will require at least some focused attention by a hunter since they will be required to choose mule deer in order to hunt them.

My guess is that since the deer permit draw happens in April and many folks will be buying tags and making their deer choice for general season then, the antelope draw in June will have negligible impact on the total amount of mule deer harvested since mule deer have already been selected and will be hunted regardless of whether the hunter also holds an antelope license.

Of course many hunters will probably do a combination hunt if they hold both licenses, but IMO many of those hunters are going to be hunting mule deer in 6 and 7 regardless of whether they drew an antelope license or not.

Again, any numbers are pure speculation because I don’t know how the data that exists could be interpreted properly to support either a pro or a con argument.

I’d also add that I’ve only ever hunted antelope one time in the snow. That has an effect on that animal. When it gets later in the year and snow hits the ground the animals have to eat more to survive. With its blue sky and 60 like it seems to be in antelope season they don’t have to wander around all day eating to survive. It is a very valid question and was a huge concern for me. The longer I personally thought on it the less of a concern it became due to the weather. Until montanas are ready to cut season length something will almost always have to have an overlap.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Okay. Apologies for taking it the wrong way.

To my knowledge, the argument for concern over incidental harvest of mule deer during elk season was advanced in the context of overall incidental harvest across the entire state. I think it’s a valid concern and is certainly a substantial portion of deer harvest in the western half of the state.

Incidental deer harvest over antelope season is a valid concern for consideration but numbers showing one thing or another would be purely speculative at this point.

In regions 6 and 7 specifically, deer are the primary target. If antelope are the primary target then mule deer harvest will require at least some focused attention by a hunter since they will be required to choose mule deer in order to hunt them.

My guess is that since the deer permit draw happens in April and many folks will be buying tags and making their deer choice for general season then, the antelope draw in June will have negligible impact on the total amount of mule deer harvested since mule deer have already been selected and will be hunted regardless of whether the hunter also holds an antelope license.

Of course many hunters will probably do a combination hunt if they hold both licenses, but IMO many of those hunters are going to be hunting mule deer in 6 and 7 regardless of whether they drew an antelope license or not.

Again, any numbers are pure speculation because I don’t know how the data that exists could be interpreted properly to support either a pro or a con argument.

Youre right. And its hard to know how many people are going to r6 and r7 to hunt cows. Or how many are very serious about hunting mule deer with an antelope/elk permit.

I just personally know that if ive got a rifle permit for elk in r6/r7 - the mule deer had better be something special to go after. Itd take less of a mule deer to distract me from the anteople permit or cow hunt.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I’d also add that I’ve only ever hunted antelope one time in the snow. That has an effect on that animal. When it gets later in the year and snow hits the ground the animals have to eat more to survive. With its blue sky and 60 like it seems to be in antelope season they don’t have to wander around all day eating to survive. It is a very valid question and was a huge concern for me. The longer I personally thought on it the less of a concern it became due to the weather. Until montanas are ready to cut season length something will almost always have to have an overlap.

Id like it more if speedgoat season had a gap or ended before. But i get it.

A 2 week speedgoat season would never be enough for most "Montanans"

 

[cgasner1]

Id like it more if speedgoat season had a gap or ended before. But i get it.

A 2 week speedgoat season would never be enough for most "Montanans"

That’s the issue man balancing it all

 

[huntin24/7]

I think the incidental take from antelope hunters would be very minimal although it certainly happens. It seems that such a high % of rifle antelope tag holders hunt opening week/weekend and they’re done. Probably a handful of youth hunters killing bucks on the family antelope hunt most likely.

 

[bigsky2]

I think the incidental take from antelope hunters would be very minimal although it certainly happens. It seems that such a high % of rifle antelope tag holders hunt opening week/weekend and they’re done. Probably a handful of youth hunters killing bucks on the family antelope hunt most likely.

I think the incidental take of mule deer by antelope hunters would pale in comparison to the incidental take of rutting mule deer alongside the road while people are elk hunting in November.