SAJ-99
Well-known member
I don’t think that is at all what they have said.
Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement
- Thread starter rogerthat
- Start date
I could quote almost every single one of them but let me give you the highlight “you don’t know how good you have it” so yes you are once again wrong. Batting 100% though so that’s good.
SwaggyD
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2022
- Messages
- 1,701
He’s literally been at meetings and talked to the biologists repeatedly, but according to you he’s a liar?
antlerradar
Well-known member
Would it help it I grew a beard?
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Does it match up to what is being published by FWP? Does it match with what is published in the justifications for 2024-25 hunting seasons? I don’t see a lot of anything that would imply “hunky dory”.
In one of these threads someone said they went to a meeting and talked to a biologist and basically said he said “all is good.” In a media publication posted a few days later a bio (maybe same person, maybe different) at that meeting was quoted as saying the exact opposite. I think people misstate things and people mishear things all the time. I like to look at what is being done. None of the adjustment are to the level we would like, but there is a lot of over generalization on what the message is. Also note that in the justifications there is a lot of historical counts data for specific units. So to my original point, they have data.
@rogerthat, agreed that the harvest data sucks. But that is not the data that matters. It’s the counts. I would like to see us move from complaining to using the data to make an argument for something more meaning. I think it should be easy to do given where the counts are right now.
Probably as much as any other action you could take.
I went back and read the first page of this thread. It is strikingly similar to the last couple of pages. It will be worse next year and if you want to know how much worse it can get, spend some time in the mountains in region 3. I have hunted 8 days this season which isn't a lot, but I have had some work that has to get done before the weather changes. I have seen about 30 deer and 20 of them were the same day. I have hunted 3 different units and I have seen 1 buck mule deer. Somewhere between 2018 and now I have lost my ability to find deer. The "data" says it is my problem, which must be true, but it wasn't always this way. Here are some of the deer that I used to see back when I was capable of seeing deer. The vast majority in region 3.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Having a beard always helps.
You would know better than I, but I think FWP talks to landowners quite a bit. Not getting the changes that are suggested does not mean they are not being listened to. FWP has to balance a lot of varying views.
I knew a LO that took his land out of BM because he didn’t think FWP was being responsive to the drop in pops in 2012. I don’t think it ever went back in.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
There are about 3 mountains and 2 gulches, all in the same triangle of earth, that myself, my brother, and my father, have probably killed 40+ deer within in the last 30+ years. We were never great deer hunters, and never really held ourselves to “high” standards, but even 15 years ago, we would often see deer over the 4.5 year mark – not giants, but deer that were fun to see and had character. My dad’s shop is filled with deer in this kind of class - what I'd say are 4-6 year old bucks with a bit of mass and uniqueness.
The last decade has been abysmal. I have not seen a deer older than what I’d guess is 3.5 years old in ten years in this area. Per FWP’s data, there are twice as many hunter days occurring on the landscape than were occurring 15 years ago. You feel it. This is an area that under the next season setting process is proposed to be wide open – does or bucks on a general permit…. They do not do winter counts in this district, due to the wintering ground being so widespread and timbered.
I have bellyached to the bios about this. I agree with the prevailing opinion on here too. The current state and or trends of mule deer and mule deer hunting, ain’t good.
My father is three quarters of a century old. When he was a child, he had a real problem with chewing his nails. His dad told him if he quit, he’d buy him a gun, and he did – a Model 94 in 30-30. Last week dad and I went hunting, and on a short walk my dad saw a buck he wanted and the 30-30 lit. What I would guess is a 3.5 year old buck, and the creation of a memory chief in the hierarchy of all my hunting memories. A beautiful morning with my dad.
I’ve said it before, but the only way this gets fixed is season configuration and tag/permit allocation. How we get there is a mystery to me. More and more Montanans I interact with feel the shifting trends of population, and more importantly, distribution, and don’t like it. But so many still are A) Satisfied with the status quo or B) Have access to places that aren’t so bad – it’s tough to get that majority, or at least number of hunters – to shift prevailing management. It's less satisfying, but I do have hope for Working Groups surrounding Deer Management, very similar to those proposed in the new EMP, and maybe a dink and dunk, district by district, approach would be more feasible.
In short, I remember decades ago and how amazing it was, and can juxtapose that against today, but if I didn’t, well, I would’ve told you last week was amazing. And it was.
It's a tough problem and I believe we need data combined with local influence more than personal stories on a statewide level, to get the big changes we need.
The last decade has been abysmal. I have not seen a deer older than what I’d guess is 3.5 years old in ten years in this area. Per FWP’s data, there are twice as many hunter days occurring on the landscape than were occurring 15 years ago. You feel it. This is an area that under the next season setting process is proposed to be wide open – does or bucks on a general permit…. They do not do winter counts in this district, due to the wintering ground being so widespread and timbered.
I have bellyached to the bios about this. I agree with the prevailing opinion on here too. The current state and or trends of mule deer and mule deer hunting, ain’t good.
My father is three quarters of a century old. When he was a child, he had a real problem with chewing his nails. His dad told him if he quit, he’d buy him a gun, and he did – a Model 94 in 30-30. Last week dad and I went hunting, and on a short walk my dad saw a buck he wanted and the 30-30 lit. What I would guess is a 3.5 year old buck, and the creation of a memory chief in the hierarchy of all my hunting memories. A beautiful morning with my dad.
I’ve said it before, but the only way this gets fixed is season configuration and tag/permit allocation. How we get there is a mystery to me. More and more Montanans I interact with feel the shifting trends of population, and more importantly, distribution, and don’t like it. But so many still are A) Satisfied with the status quo or B) Have access to places that aren’t so bad – it’s tough to get that majority, or at least number of hunters – to shift prevailing management. It's less satisfying, but I do have hope for Working Groups surrounding Deer Management, very similar to those proposed in the new EMP, and maybe a dink and dunk, district by district, approach would be more feasible.
In short, I remember decades ago and how amazing it was, and can juxtapose that against today, but if I didn’t, well, I would’ve told you last week was amazing. And it was.
It's a tough problem and I believe we need data combined with local influence more than personal stories on a statewide level, to get the big changes we need.
The meeting in Miles City this spring I believe it was had them literally put a PowerPoint together to explain to a room full of concerned sportsman and landowners that things are in good shape. Then when big landowners that could actually manage their deer numbers were calling in to say that even big chunks of private land the deer numbers are in the shitter still had fwp not believing them and saying that those landowners need to have the biologists come out and look things over. It’s not just the public ground that’s in bad shape. The private just isn’t in as bad of a place as the public yet.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
I just think it is time to change the conversation. Doug likes to say I'm wrong, but I actually agree with him on the trend and state of mule deer. So I guess we are both wrong. The complaining just isn't getting anything changed. Now is the time to comment on the changes to the seasons. I see some of things people have asked for in a few places, particularly in 410 and 417, as has been mentioned here. Read the justification. It seems FWP talked to quite a few of the various stakeholders and got input. This won't stop the complaining here I'm sure, but it is good to see some changes.
I don't see any changes proposed for Zone 7, which is concerning. Comment now.
Fish And Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023 | Montana FWP
Fish and Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023
fwp.mt.gov
My comments are already in just like I have done over the past 10 years or more. It echoed what you just said. I believe you are a bit out of touch as to what is going on. Many people biologists from other agencies outfitters landowners sportsmen have had conversations with the staff. It isn’t as easy as you believe it is. You can call me a complainer but I have tried to push for positive changes, changes as simple as private land only doe tags.I just think it is time to change the conversation. Doug likes to say I'm wrong, but I actually agree with him on the trend and state of mule deer. So I guess we are both wrong. The complaining just isn't getting anything changed. Now is the time to comment on the changes to the seasons. I see some of things people have asked for in a few places, particularly in 410 and 417, as has been mentioned here. Read the justification. It seems FWP talked to quite a few of the various stakeholders and got input. This won't stop the complaining here I'm sure, but it is good to see some changes.
I don't see any changes proposed for Zone 7, which is concerning. Comment now.
Fish And Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023 | Montana FWP
Fish and Wildlife Commission Meeting: December 14, 2023
Nameless Range
Well-known member
There's something else about Mule Deer management that we are up against. Even if one can point to data, to age-class, to populations, to trends, to experiences...a common retort will be management in the name of reducing CWD - in preparation for its arrival, or in response to its existence. Which translated seems to mean a goal of, "not very many mule deer on the landscape."
It can almost feel like a trump card to most concerns.
It can almost feel like a trump card to most concerns.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
I get that it isn't easy and I am sure I get more out of touch every day. I agree on what you all say and I submitted comments suggesting many of the things you want. I am on your side, even if you constantly seem to want to disagree with me. This thread has become an echo chamber. We all seem to agree. My only disagreement may be in that it isn't useful to view FWP as the enemy. It is a government organization with all normal slow-moving, bureaucracy that comes with that. Change comes from constant and focused pressure and convincing others of the benefits of that change. The changes in 410 should have been done a long time ago IMO, but better late than never I guess. It is important to read the justification below. 60% of hunters would still rather take their gun for a hike over 6 weeks than have a quality mule deer hunt. Maybe having draw units within a zone is a compromise the FWP can justify in other places? Region 7 would probably need some geographic adjustments from how it is structured now. Regardless, when you read the survey results for region 7, you get an idea of how large of an obstacle hunter desires are for making any changes.
I am for any change that helps the resource, even if it means I never get to hunt mule deer in MT again. But I am equally concerned that extreme climate events will make it harder for mule deer populations to rebound at all and as @Nameless Range points out, the CWD plan is designed to minimize the mule deer population and # of bucks at baseline. Keep an eye on the proposals for 502 and 555. It's a no-win situation.
Schaaf
Well-known member
I can’t stop thinking about the fact that in the face of CWD, they need the trust and backing of sportsman more than ever and they’ve managed to back into this dark cloud with what I perceive to be the lowest trust in their deer management that I can recall.
appaloosa
Well-known member
I don't have a dog in this fight so I can only follow along in amusement. But, I wasn't going to pass up an opportunity to throw gasoline on this dumpster fire.
This one has me cracked up, welcome to "the grind"....
This one has me cracked up, welcome to "the grind"....
What’s the price per pound equal out to? Tags, fuel, full kuiu head to toe. Guy could’ve killed a beef and a pig for the freezer most likely
375H&H
Well-known member
Ironically, I have seen more solid bucks (some massive) posted this year from Montana from people on here than in years past.
Drove through the heart of R7 2 weeks ago and was surprised at the high number of deer I saw with multiple good bucks around the herds.
More gasoline.
Drove through the heart of R7 2 weeks ago and was surprised at the high number of deer I saw with multiple good bucks around the herds.
More gasoline.
If I need some deer meat I’m shooting a whitetail 100 times out of 100. I’m not a fan of muley meat, I’m sure some people are though.
ccbrockett
New member
This is primo
. @Nameless Range You hit it on the head. Anecdotal data is still data. It may not have unique identifiers and you may not find it on an interfaced query in a neat stack or bar graph, but it is raw data. So FWP is slow to respond and the changes don’t match what the majority of folks on here think needs to be done, that matters and it should be taken with a pound of salt. I can’t say much more than you did and certainly not with the weight that you did
but keep it up and maybe folks will start buying in. This isn’t a battle of words, it is a war of action.
easternmt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2015
- Messages
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