Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[cgasner1]

I would smoke that joker

Especially if you saw the video him super cool buck had some trash probably kicking around 170 hope to find one this weekend like him

 

[sclancy27]

I really think the big Helena town bucks illustrates clearly what is going on with the bucks in Montana. The only difference between the town bucks and the bucks on Macdonald pass(just an example insert any adjacent area) is age. The genetics are here.

The town bucks are getting significantly better nutrition than the bucks on Mac Pass. Not to mention lack of predation stress. Age isn't the whole equation.

 

[sclancy27]

I would like to see 1 out of every five bucks seen to be in this age class but even 1 out of every 10 or even 20 would be an improvement.

If you accept the published buck annual mortality (~40%), 7-10% of buck mule deer on the landscape are 4-5 year old bucks. If you increase annual mortality to 60%, it's more like 1-3% of bucks.

 

[rogerthat]

If you accept the published buck annual mortality (~40%), 7-10% of buck mule deer on the landscape are 4-5 year old bucks. If you increase annual mortality to 60%, it's more like 1-3% of bucks.

I would guess we are near the latter but the former sounds pretty good

 

[sclancy27]

I would guess we are near the latter but the former sounds pretty good

Considering that all deer mortality was really high in 2020 and especially 2021 due to once 50-100 yr droughts, I think it very possible that we are closer to the 2nd number. That said, where we hunt in R7 the 7-10% number was pretty accurate prior to 2020.

From my perspective, SE MT is experiencing what northern R7 did post 2010-2011 winter. Northern R7 got absolutely crushed in that winter, sort of like how SE MT got crushed by the drought of 2021. Except drought is way worse than bad winters because of the lingering habitat effects.

Speaking of habitat, there has been a pretty significant change on a lot of the Custer since 2013. Deer populations on the forest exploded post-fire of 2012, which affected a large portion of the forest. Now, a lot of those areas are seeing successional patterns where habitat is transitioning from early successional plants to late successional plants, grasses and conifer/juniper. Thats not great for deer, but really, really good for elk.

 

[DFS]

Considering that all deer mortality was really high in 2020 and especially 2021 due to once 50-100 yr droughts, I think it very possible that we are closer to the 2nd number. That said, where we hunt in R7 the 7-10% number was pretty accurate prior to 2020.

From my perspective, SE MT is experiencing what northern R7 did post 2010-2011 winter. Northern R7 got absolutely crushed in that winter, sort of like how SE MT got crushed by the drought of 2021. Except drought is way worse than bad winters because of the lingering habitat effects.

Speaking of habitat, there has been a pretty significant change on a lot of the Custer since 2013. Deer populations on the forest exploded post-fire of 2012, which affected a large portion of the forest. Now, a lot of those areas are seeing successional patterns where habitat is transitioning from early successional plants to late successional plants, grasses and conifer/juniper. Thats not great for deer, but really, really good for elk.

Are we speaking to a fwp biologist? SE Montana got crushed 2010-2012 as well. If you have much history with the area it did not recover from there.

 

[rogerthat]

Considering that all deer mortality was really high in 2020 and especially 2021 due to once 50-100 yr droughts, I think it very possible that we are closer to the 2nd number. That said, where we hunt in R7 the 7-10% number was pretty accurate prior to 2020.

From my perspective, SE MT is experiencing what northern R7 did post 2010-2011 winter. Northern R7 got absolutely crushed in that winter, sort of like how SE MT got crushed by the drought of 2021. Except drought is way worse than bad winters because of the lingering habitat effects.

Speaking of habitat, there has been a pretty significant change on a lot of the Custer since 2013. Deer populations on the forest exploded post-fire of 2012, which affected a large portion of the forest. Now, a lot of those areas are seeing successional patterns where habitat is transitioning from early successional plants to late successional plants, grasses and conifer/juniper. Thats not great for deer, but really, really good for elk.

We been here before?

 

[rogerthat]

Considering that all deer mortality was really high in 2020 and especially 2021 due to once 50-100 yr droughts, I think it very possible that we are closer to the 2nd number. That said, where we hunt in R7 the 7-10% number was pretty accurate prior to 2020.

From my perspective, SE MT is experiencing what northern R7 did post 2010-2011 winter. Northern R7 got absolutely crushed in that winter, sort of like how SE MT got crushed by the drought of 2021. Except drought is way worse than bad winters because of the lingering habitat effects.

Speaking of habitat, there has been a pretty significant change on a lot of the Custer since 2013. Deer populations on the forest exploded post-fire of 2012, which affected a large portion of the forest. Now, a lot of those areas are seeing successional patterns where habitat is transitioning from early successional plants to late successional plants, grasses and conifer/juniper. Thats not great for deer, but really, really good for elk.

Regarding the Custer “exploded” might be too strong of a word. Maybe a slight bump. Way more deer on public if you go back a decade to the early 2000s. It’s been general trend decline on the Custer for at least the last 2 decades I have spent significant time down there. I’m sure @antlerradar will be chiming in with much better perspective but that’s been my observation

 

[rogerthat]

Speaking of habitat, there has been a pretty significant change on a lot of the Custer since 2013. Deer populations on the forest exploded post-fire of 2012, which affected a large portion of the forest. Now, a lot of those areas are seeing successional patterns where habitat is transitioning from early successional plants to late successional plants, grasses and conifer/juniper. Thats not great for deer, but really, really good for elk.

And I’m not buying the habitat argument. Have you seen the shrub and forb regrowth on the north faces in much of these burned areas? The choke cherries went nuts. Yea the south faces to me do have much more cheatgrass but I don’t think that’s good for anything including elk. But I’m not a vegetation expert either. I will state this. I can’t think of worse place in Montana to spend time hunting deer right now than the Custer.

 

[sclancy27]

And I’m not buying the habitat argument. Have you seen the shrub and forb regrowth on the north faces in much of these burned areas? The choke cherries went nuts. Yea the south faces to me do have much more cheatgrass but I don’t think that’s good for anything including elk. But I’m not a vegetation expert either. I will state this. I can’t think of worse place in Montana to spend time hunting deer right now than the Custer.

The burned area response is not homogenous now. Some areas are still good, a lot of it has progressed, at least from what I'm seeing.

As far as the Custer being the worst place in MT for mule deer hunting right now...IDK what to say about that. There's a lot of places drive by to hunt there. I'll be out a east for the next 5-10 days, I'll keep a log of deer seen.

 

[antlerradar]

Regarding the Custer “exploded” might be too strong of a word. Maybe a slight bump. Way more deer on public if you go back a decade to the early 2000s. It’s been general trend decline on the Custer for at least the last 2 decades I have spent significant time down there. I’m sure @antlerradar will be chiming in with much better perspective but that’s been my observation

I would say the deer population has been in shifting form public to private since the late 80's. There have been some good times since then, with some upswings in population, but the long term trend on the public land population is down ward sloping.

 

[antlerradar]

And I’m not buying the habitat argument. Have you seen the shrub and forb regrowth on the north faces in much of these burned areas? The choke cherries went nuts. Yea the south faces to me do have much more cheatgrass but I don’t think that’s good for anything including elk. But I’m not a vegetation expert either. I will state this. I can’t think of worse place in Montana to spend time hunting deer right now than the Custer.

I am not ether. I see winter fat that is knee high, rabbit brush as tall as me and the south faces are covered with sumac. Feed is not the issue on the Custer.

 

[sclancy27]

I would say the deer population has been in shifting form public to private since the late 80's. There have been some good times since then, with some upswings in population, but the long term trend on the public land population is down ward sloping.

I'm not old enough to know, when is the last time the Custer had significant levels of logging?

I wish the FS there had the balls to do large scale prescribed fire. I was in AZ the last week, there was huge prescribed fires going on near where I was hunting. I'm sure the grazing leases complicate that equation quite a bit, but a guy can dream.

 

[antlerradar]

I'm not old enough to know, when is the last time the Custer had significant levels of logging?

I wish the FS there had the balls to do large scale prescribed fire. I was in AZ the last week, there was huge prescribed fires going on near where I was hunting. I'm sure the grazing leases complicate that equation quite a bit, but a guy can dream.

The Custer has never had significant levels of logging. Even when there was a mill in Ashland most of the timber was supplied by private land or the Rez. You can still find metal tags on some old pines that were marked for sale 50 years ago and never sold.
Most of the ranchers are begging the Forest Service to do more prescribed fire and they have done quite a bit. Part of the problem is there just isn't that may days that fall in fire safety prescription. Short window in SE MT between when it is too wet to burn and when it is too hot and windy to be safe.

 

[SAJ-99]

The town bucks are getting significantly better nutrition than the bucks on Mac Pass. Not to mention lack of predation stress. Age isn't the whole equation.

98.7% of all bucks in Montana at or over 180in live within a city limits.

Note:100% of internet statistic might be made up.

 

[rogerthat]

I'm not old enough to know, when is the last time the Custer had significant levels of logging?

I wish the FS there had the balls to do large scale prescribed fire. I was in AZ the last week, there was huge prescribed fires going on near where I was hunting. I'm sure the grazing leases complicate that equation quite a bit, but a guy can dream.

How big is a large prescribed fire? I know they have done prescribed fires of several hundred acres maybe even as large as 500 down there. Rmef,mdf and turkey have funded some

 

[rogerthat]

98.7% of all bucks in Montana at or over 180in live within a city limits.

Note:100% of internet statistic might be made up.

What do you think the town bucks favorite food source is? Tulips? Dog food?

 

[sclancy27]

How big is a large prescribed fire? I know they have done prescribed fires of several hundred acres maybe even as large as 500 down there. Rmef,mdf and turkey have funded some

By large, I don't mean individual fires. I mean total acres. I've turkey hunted some of those prescribed burns they've done, they sure seem to love them.

 

[SAJ-99]

What do you think the town bucks favorite food source is? Tulips? Dog food?

It varies depending on the season. In Billings, I heard they love apples. No mule deer in Montana saw an apple until like 1975. Like when cocaine hit Miami. Same impact.

 

[sclancy27]

What do you think the town bucks favorite food source is? Tulips? Dog food?

Ours is the rose bush and some other shrubs. I planted a bunch of pollinators this spring, we'll see if they hit them hard in the spring