Kenetrek Boots

Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

Yeah, region 7 is still lumped together,
When I first started hunting, region 7 was broken up into many antelope units. I can not remember how many, but I hunted unit 742 so there was at least 42 of them.
742 contained the SW part of the Custer and quite a bit of the private south of the forest. 742 was not an every year draw even for residents, More like an every other year or maybe three years if you were unlucky, but when you did draw the hunting was fairly good. When the proposal two lump all of 7 in to one unit was first implemented, I was thinking "hot dam, going to get to hunt goats every year" Didn't take long to change my young mind when the season started. Now that everyone drew a tag the public had twice as many hunters. It was a F ing zoo on the public. The next few years I switched from hunting the Custer to hunting private land, but it wasn't long and those places were leased. The old easy to get tags, more opportunity, the more value to the landowner deal that skips right by many game managers.
Prime example of the management philosophy of the law of diminishing returns. The big problems with this management is you need to have good access to most of the unit for it to work. When access starts to get restricted under the law of diminishing returns it snow balls and soon hunters are just moving back and forth from one over hunted spot to another. Some hunters just quite, I am a perfect example, I have not put in for a rifle antelope tag in thirty years, bought a few 900 tags but not many. Other hunters take management into their own hands and lease private land for themselves. The current trend of more ranches leasing to resident hunters is a direct result of poor hunting on public and the law of diminishing returns management. If there is one person to be flogged at FWP it is the first person to push this management philosophy. I am sure they has long since retired. Why current management continues to manage this way is beyond me. Self destructive.
 
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When I first started hunting, region 7 was broken up into many antelope units. I can not remember how many, but I hunted unit 742 so there was at least 42 of them.
742 contained the SW part of the Custer and quite a bit of the private south of the forest. 742 was not an every year draw even for residents, More like an every other year or maybe three years if you were unlucky, but when you did draw the hunting was fairly good. When the proposal two lump all of 7 in to one unit was first implemented, I was thinking "hot dam, going to get to hunt goats every year" Didn't take long to change my young mind when the season started. Now that everyone drew a tag the public had twice as many hunters. It was a F ing zoo on the public. The next few years I switched from hunting the Custer to hunting private land, but it wasn't long and those places were leased. The old easy to get tags, more opportunity, the more value to the landowner deal that skips right by many game managers.
Prime example of the management philosophy of the law of diminishing returns. The big problems with this management is you need to have good access to most of the unit for it to work. When access starts to get restricted under the law of diminishing returns it snow balls and soon hunters are just moving back and forth from one over hunted spot to another. Some hunters just quite, I am a perfect example, I have not put in for a rifle antelope tag in thirty years, bought a few 900 tags but not many. Other hunters take management into their own hands and lease private land for themselves. The current trend of more ranches leasing to resident hunters is a direct result of poor hunting on public and the law of diminishing returns management. If there is one person to be flogged at FWP it is the first person to push this management philosophy. I am sure they has long since retired. Why current management continues to manage this way is beyond me. Self destructive.
Sounds like a good summary the problem with everything. Just replace 'antelope' with your game of choice.
 
What would you have been happy with?
Giving them a chance to recover. Every time you see these population crashes we never let them come back to pre crash levels. Deer or antelope a new lower bar is set. Going back 10 years put us right at 2012 the lowest game levels I previously saw in my life. Managing off the 10 year average sets the bar extremely low. How low do you want to let that bar go? I think we are screwed even if management did change which it isn’t going to.
 
Giving them a chance to recover. Every time you see these population crashes we never let them come back to pre crash levels. Deer or antelope a new lower bar is set. Going back 10 years put us right at 2012 the lowest game levels I previously saw in my life. Managing off the 10 year average sets the bar extremely low. How low do you want to let that bar go? I think we are screwed even if management did change which it isn’t going to.
So zero. Zero would have made you happy? Fine. Recover to what level? Population numbers based on counts you don't trust? Take a look at population counts from 2021 and 2022 that those tag # were based on. That is what any biologist is going to base their defense on.

This thread makes it abundantly clear why hunters can't make an impact in Helena. Even if we agree on the goal, arguments are often disjointed and ideas to get there move to recommendations that are entirely impractical.
 
So zero. Zero would have made you happy? Fine. Recover to what level? Population numbers based on counts you don't trust? Take a look at population counts from 2021 and 2022 that those tag # were based on. That is what any biologist is going to base their defense on.

This thread makes it abundantly clear why hunters can't make an impact in Helena. Even if we agree on the goal, arguments are often disjointed and ideas to get there move to recommendations that are entirely impractical.
I think there is a lot of consensus on this thread by hunters. I could list a number of themes.

1 better data would be helpful and hopefully lead to better management
2 the tide is turning and hunters in this thread want management at a more local level instead of a statewide
3 probably don’t shoot md does on public
4 shall I go on?

To think we are all going to agree on specifics is probably not a reasonable expectation. I think your dismissal of these themes much like fwps is a mistake.
 
So zero. Zero would have made you happy? Fine. Recover to what level? Population numbers based on counts you don't trust? Take a look at population counts from 2021 and 2022 that those tag # were based on. That is what any biologist is going to base their defense on.

This thread makes it abundantly clear why hunters can't make an impact in Helena. Even if we agree on the goal, arguments are often disjointed and ideas to get there move to recommendations that are entirely impractical.
I didn’t say zero. Take a drive on the Sonnette and bloom creek road if you want see an antelope management disaster. You probably would think it’s good with the handful you saw. Certainly not many less hunters pounding the few that are left. Thank you for your knowledge from Washington are you turning things around for deer yet?
 
I think there is a lot of consensus on this thread by hunters. I could list a number of themes.

1 better data would be helpful and hopefully lead to better management
2 the tide is turning and hunters in this thread want management at a more local level instead of a statewide
3 probably don’t shoot md does on public
4 shall I go on?

To think we are all going to agree on specifics is probably not a reasonable expectation. I think your dismissal of these themes much like fwps is a mistake.
I don't dismiss the themes. I actually agree with them in principle. People don't like population surveys or the resulting numbers. Most views have ranged from FWP is incompetent to it being totally corrupt. Anyone suggest how to better way to measure wildlife over the various terrain of 145,000 sq miles of Montana? That is the problem. I bring that up and suddenly i'm the problem. LOL.

I don't think this thread represents the broader group of Res hunters in Montana. It seems like an echo chamber. I sure hope I'm wrong, but I know where I would place my bet. Most just want to get theirs why they can.
 
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Here’s where the counts are done. The majority are private land strong holds. You think they are counting every deer or you think they are making a few assumptions. This is where your “data” is coming from @SAJ-99. Along with a record count from 2019 on one of the public land areas that to say nicely simply isn’t possible.
 
View attachment 254257
Here’s where the counts are done. The majority are private land strong holds. You think they are counting every deer or you think they are making a few assumptions. This is where your “data” is coming from @SAJ-99. Along with a record count from 2019 on one of the public land areas that to say nicely simply isn’t possible.
I guess you keep yelling at me because I’m the only one still willing to hear you. I know where to find the map of the transects. You still don’t have a solution. You want to argue all transects are too much private? Are you suggesting different transects? They would argue that doing that means they can’t make historical YTY comparisons. It isn’t that simple to do and causes other problems. No bio wants to start from scratch and listen to the complaints increase.

Reminder IM ON YOUR SIDE!!! FFS. It seems you are hell bent on making me dislike you.
 
View attachment 254257
Here’s where the counts are done. The majority are private land strong holds. You think they are counting every deer or you think they are making a few assumptions. This is where your “data” is coming from @SAJ-99. Along with a record count from 2019 on one of the public land areas that to say nicely simply isn’t possible.

703 survey area. Like 2 sections of state in it is all. 😂 “numbers look good”
 
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