Montana mule deer Expectations.

[brocksw]

The game changer for muley populations on the West Side since the 80s and 90s has been wolves. I ran onto tracks of a pack when I was hunting south of Dillon this past fall. They were clearly chasing muleys. Think about it. Which animals are they going to be able to cull first, healthy spry young muley bucks or stiff legged old timers? I think we know the answer. Yes, wolves are making their presence known on the East Side now but thankfully that terrain lends itself more favorably to predator control. They can be seen easier there at long distance and we have guns that can reach them. Personally, thanks to wolves, I doubt we'll ever see the mountains producing the quantity of monster bucks they did back in the seventies and eighties, no matter what FWP does ... short of once again exterminating wolves. And we know that's not going to happen.

Ep. 162: Landscape of Fear | MeatEater Podcasts

Steven Rinella talks with Dr. Kevin Monteith, Dr. Matt Kaufmann, Jared Oakleaf, and Janis Putelis.Subjects discussed: genetics that rewrite our understanding of animals; big game guts; learning how to migrate; who pays for wildlife research?; brain scrambling, extreme sports, and wildlife capture...

www.themeateater.com

Please enjoy the musings of Dr. Kevin Monteith and Dr. Matt Kaufman.

 

[88man]

Why? Just a genuine question

for me its because MD are struggling and WT seem to be doing pretty well just about everywhere. Soon you will have WT at 10,000 FT

 

[brockel]

And I'm betting you'd shoot a raghorn 5x5 and be tickled pink. But gawdamn those guys who shoot deer the same age!

You put a rag horn 5x5 standing next to a cow and I’m shooting the cow everytime. One less thing to pack out and one less thing taking up my garage floor

 

[Irishman]

There are areas that I hunted each year starting over 30 years ago. I covered a lot of ground each year, saw lots of elk, but rarely a mule deer. Over the years the mule deer numbers increased significantly, and that was despite lots of wolves showing up. The difference, I think, was habitat. The area got big forest fires, and the mule deer seemed to thrive afterwards. My point being there are other factors besides preditors of the 2 or 4 legged variety.
I would imagine going forward, that there will be areas that there will be "quality" mule deer. However, I would expect the easy to hunt areas, despite permits or shortening seasons will continue to see a decline.

 

[BirdManMike]

I havent seen a mule deer buck that I would pull the trigger on in 5 years. I see plenty of does in my area, tho, Id often think Id like to shoot one. Selfishly, of course, as I know if mule deer does were shootable there would be no mule deer at all. So kindve a 'ME, but not YOU!' thought, but of course I dont really mean it.

I know plenty of people that shoot whatever they see. Forkhorn, 3pt, whatever. In some cases, Id bet they are muley bucks I have seen and passed on while out hunting elk. Whitetails are getting more and more difficult to access for most people in southwest Montana. Elk, too. As much as I dont like seeing forkhorns shot, it is difficult for me to judge people that just want some meat in the freezer.

 

[BirdManMike]

As much as I dont like seeing forkhorns shot, it is difficult for me to judge people that just want some meat in the freezer.

And this is the rub. Right?

We have gone round and round here as it pertains to landowners with access, crop damage, monetizing game, etc etc. Opportunity, too. Some people just want a full freezer, its not about antlers or trophys. Not for me, not for plenty of others.

I am neither FOR or ANTI ranching. Ambivalent, really. I have plenty of private access (for birds, tho, not so much for elk or deer). Here is the thing: not putting red meat in the freezer means I have to buy red meat. Cow. From ranches.

I dont know where I am going with this. Other than, I want the elk and deer populations to be healthy, and I want the opportunity to put meat in my freezer. I am happy to give up my opportunity if conservation requires it - but, does the herd need 7 year old bucks or can it meet replacement with the 3 year olds being shot as happens now? If the former, sign me up for limited entry permits. If the latter, well I dont care about your, or my, trophies.

 

[SwaggyD]

And this is the rub. Right?

We have gone round and round here as it pertains to landowners with access, crop damage, monetizing game, etc etc. Opportunity, too. Some people just want a full freezer, its not about antlers or trophys. Not for me, not for plenty of others.

I am neither FOR or ANTI ranching. Ambivalent, really. I have plenty of private access (for birds, tho, not so much for elk or deer). Here is the thing: not putting red meat in the freezer means I have to buy red meat. Cow. From ranches.

I dont know where I am going with this. Other than, I want the elk and deer populations to be healthy, and I want the opportunity to put meat in my freezer. I am happy to give up my opportunity if conservation requires it - but, does the herd need 7 year old bucks or can it meet replacement with the 3 year olds being shot as happens now? If the former, sign me up for limited entry permits. If the latter, well I dont care about your, or my, trophies.

I would also ‘like the opportunity to fill my freezer’. And in any given year in Montana, you have several opportunities with several species. Depends on what you want to put in it. Mine this year has a cow elk and some walleye.

 

[brocksw]

And this is the rub. Right?

We have gone round and round here as it pertains to landowners with access, crop damage, monetizing game, etc etc. Opportunity, too. Some people just want a full freezer, its not about antlers or trophys. Not for me, not for plenty of others.

I am neither FOR or ANTI ranching. Ambivalent, really. I have plenty of private access (for birds, tho, not so much for elk or deer). Here is the thing: not putting red meat in the freezer means I have to buy red meat. Cow. From ranches.

I dont know where I am going with this. Other than, I want the elk and deer populations to be healthy, and I want the opportunity to put meat in my freezer. I am happy to give up my opportunity if conservation requires it - but, does the herd need 7 year old bucks or can it meet replacement with the 3 year olds being shot as happens now? If the former, sign me up for limited entry permits. If the latter, well I dont care about your, or my, trophies.

I think there's a lot of people like this. More than what some on this thread think. People who just want to go hunt. People who just want to make some deer sausage. For some people, even a 140" mule deer is a trophy animal. Throw in the guys who think it's their birthright to shoot deer over thanksgiving. Then throw in some people that just don't want change.

MT's Season tag structure for deer will be hard to change because of this imo. Hunters will not all be on the same page.

 

[Ben Lamb]

And this is the rub. Right?

We have gone round and round here as it pertains to landowners with access, crop damage, monetizing game, etc etc. Opportunity, too. Some people just want a full freezer, its not about antlers or trophys. Not for me, not for plenty of others.

I am neither FOR or ANTI ranching. Ambivalent, really. I have plenty of private access (for birds, tho, not so much for elk or deer). Here is the thing: not putting red meat in the freezer means I have to buy red meat. Cow. From ranches.

I dont know where I am going with this. Other than, I want the elk and deer populations to be healthy, and I want the opportunity to put meat in my freezer. I am happy to give up my opportunity if conservation requires it - but, does the herd need 7 year old bucks or can it meet replacement with the 3 year olds being shot as happens now? If the former, sign me up for limited entry permits. If the latter, well I dont care about your, or my, trophies.

A quarter of beef is cheaper than hunting elk & deer for a resident in MT once you crunch the numbers on gasoline, incidentals, etc. This might be heresy, but a grass fed, grain finished piece of local beef is better than a mule deer buck for table fare. I said it, I stand by it.

The rest of this I 100% agree with. You can build quality MD units while still offering OTC opportunity where it makes sense based on the actual herd, access and other factors.

 

[Cheesehead]

One thing Huntalk has taught me is that Montanans really hate mule deer

 

[Nameless Range]

I dont know where I am going with this. Other than, I want the elk and deer populations to be healthy, and I want the opportunity to put meat in my freezer. I am happy to give up my opportunity if conservation requires it - but, does the herd need 7 year old bucks or can it meet replacement with the 3 year olds being shot as happens now? If the former, sign me up for limited entry permits. If the latter, well I dont care about your, or my, trophies.

I have asked this same question, and I think the answer is obvious. We can meet replacement with a pile of young bucks and never any old ones.

There's something deeper though, and I know it won't be convincing to many. But I think looking at a herd through the lense of population alone misses something. When we don't allow deer to ever "get old", which in Montana really just means mature reasonably, we are potentially missing out on knowledge. I don't know if it is behavior, or dynamics, or what, but it's hard not believe that there is a really fascinating aspect of "deerness" that is void from the landscape. Much the same as a study of some human civilization would be if none of its member ever surpassed the age of 30.


If we talk about the importance of age class structure in terms of "trophies" we will never get anywhere, and I think it is one of the least interesting aspects of it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I have asked this same question, and I think the answer is obvious. We can meet replacement with a pile of young bucks and never any old ones.

There's something deeper though, and I know it won't be convincing to many. But I think looking at a herd through the lense of population alone misses something. When we don't allow deer to ever "get old", which in Montana really just means mature reasonably, we are potentially missing out on knowledge. I don't know if it is behavior, or dynamics, or what, but it's hard not believe that there is a really fascinating aspect of "deerness" that is void from the landscape. Much the same as a study of some human civilization would be if none of its member ever surpassed the age of 30.


If we talk about the importance of age class structure in terms of "trophies" we will never get anywhere, and I think it is one of the least interesting aspects of it.

The guys at Anaconda Sportsmen take this view, I think there's merit to it.

 

[MTTW]

I would way rather eat elk than deer. I would way rather hunt deer than elk. What we do to mule deer the last 2 weeks of season is embarrassing. I would give up my deer tag for the rest of my life if FWP would do what is right for mule deer. Which in my opinion is close the season in much of region 3 on public.

You can't fix a unit. You just move hunters around. You have to restrict the whole state or the problem moves. The lack of deer in southwest is a big part of the over hunting problem in the east.

 

[Unlucky]

My thought is this, the public want quality mule deer. Private land owners also. Haven't knocked on doors in 20 yrs till my kids could hunt. Noticed and picked up on private land owners love there mule deer and will protect them. Every outfitter i know wants better management for mule deer. I think everyone wants quality mule deer hunting regardless of the common MT theme of quantity. The meat in the freezer thing is old news. When there are tons of elk shoulder seasons and basically unlimited whitey hunting, in parts of mt. Nobody killing a muley for meat. Haven't been offered a muley steak or burger in 15 yrs. Only jerky.

Mt has opportunity in cow elk damage, shoulder hunts, whitey hunts. Tell me u rely on mule deer meat and i will call u a liar.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I have asked this same question, and I think the answer is obvious. We can meet replacement with a pile of young bucks and never any old ones.

There's something deeper though, and I know it won't be convincing to many. But I think looking at a herd through the lense of population alone misses something. When we don't allow deer to ever "get old", which in Montana really just means mature reasonably, we are potentially missing out on knowledge. I don't know if it is behavior, or dynamics, or what, but it's hard not believe that there is a really fascinating aspect of "deerness" that is void from the landscape. Much the same as a study of some human civilization would be if none of its member ever surpassed the age of 30.


If we talk about the importance of age class structure in terms of "trophies" we will never get anywhere, and I think it is one of the least interesting aspects of it.

I drank another cup of coffee after reading some of the comments about trophy hunting prior to the above post instead of replying.

@Nameless Range summarizes my thoughts well.

For me, a well managed deer herd is one that contains all age classes of deer and allows animals to reach maturity and beyond rather than reaping them like feedlot steers when they hit 2 1/2 years old.

The older I get, the more I view wildlife as how they exist on the landscape year round instead of how they exist after I shoot them.

 

[brocksw]

Mule deer are delicious. This is an atrocity.

Instead of guessing or speculating what well managed herd looks like. I just sent an email off to Dr. Monteith to get his take on age structure within a mule deer herd. He's more qualified than anyone on this thread in terms of credentials.


"Thank you for the response, Kevin. I have another question regarding Mule deer that is a hot topic on the hunttalk.com forum. Many Montana residents are critical of the MT FWP's management of mule deer and their liberal season and tag structure. Concerns raised are anything from shooting too many does. Shooting too many small bucks, not letting bucks mature, not seeing enough big bucks, etc.

What is the biological preference? Based on things I've heard you say, my assumption is that there is a benefit to having mature mule deer does on the landscape. They pass on the knowledge to offspring; I would assume that holds true even in populations that don't migrate in the more popular sense that we hear about (Wyoming's Migrations). But is there also a benefit to having mature bucks in a population? What is that ratio? What is that benefit? Is there an optimal management style (tag and season structure) to succeed if that is one's goal?"

 

[Unlucky]

I think its fwp resisting change. Worried they wont sell licenses because of opportunity. When there would be more of a demand for quality. Everyone would still buy a tag if it was all draw. Idk 1 person happy with how its managed.

 

[BirdManMike]

A quarter of beef is cheaper than hunting elk & deer for a resident in MT once you crunch the numbers on gasoline, incidentals, etc. This might be heresy, but a grass fed, grain finished piece of local beef is better than a mule deer buck for table fare. I said it, I stand by it.

Its definitely better, youve got that right. Cheaper is pretty debatable. There is no way I spend the roughly $700 or so it costs for a quarter of beef in a year on big game hunting.

For me, seeing all the overgrazed moonscape every day - some of it chained or cut sage that used to have grouse and leks just a few years ago - makes me want to never eat another steak.

Anyway, Ill take whatever comes. No problem with limited entry, as I mentioned.

 

[bigsky2]

I drank another cup of coffee after reading some of the comments about trophy hunting prior to the above post instead of replying.

@Nameless Range summarizes my thoughts well.

For me, a well managed deer herd is one that contains all age classes of deer and allows animals to reach maturity and beyond rather than reaping them feedlot steers when they hit 2 1/2 years old.

The older I get, the more I view wildlife as how they exist on the landscape year round instead of how they exist after I shoot them.

I equate Montana's mule deer population to what it would be like if our human population was sustained by teenage boys screwing 30-50 year old women. Sure you can maintain a population that way, but its just not right.

 

[Unlucky]

Lol too funny.