Montana MSG Results

[BuzzH]

The un-intended consequence of a blanket OIL policy for MSG in MT is the unlimited sheep units then become OIL (Yet the draw odds didn't improve for LE permits). Also, let's say a 12yo kid draws a MSG goat tag the first year they apply. It would be nice for that individual to have the opportunity to hunt again later in life. These could be factors in why the MTWSF made efforts to clarify the odds and why these odds wouldn't improve through a OIL system. The issue came about when Rep. Denley Loge pushed for OIL. It's rumored that Denley just feels unfairly treated for not drawing his Perma Paradise ram tag.

If people want more opportunity, the solution is not to restrict the draw system further. The influx of new applicants will outweigh this change on an annual basis and your odds will likely still be worse than the year prior. You're better off working with the bios, conservation orgs, etc to form new seasons, offer more tags where it's sustainable, and disperse applicants.

If people are really that concerned about the odds, voice your opinion on the commercialization of hunting that's taking place across all mediums. Consulting magazines, media platforms, etc are all bringing more people into the draw annually than you would eliminate by implementing a OIL system.

I think the MTWSF needs to dig a little deeper, I personally know a Montana Resident that has drawn 3 limited ram permits, another that's drawn 2, another Montana resident that has drawn 8 goat tags, another that's drawn 9 goat tags. My Dad has drawn 2 Montana moose permits.

I've drawn 2 bull moose permits in Wyoming, 2015 and 2022.

Once in a lifetime makes sense for moose, sheep, goat.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

You're better off working with the bios, conservation orgs, etc to form new seasons, offer more tags where it's sustainable, and disperse applicants.

Or, possibly, put forth effort to increase the populations.

 

[MTGomer]

I haven’t looked in a while so these numbers are rough, but Montana gives what, 125ish LE sheep tags and there’s 26,000ish applicants and increasing every year?
With the 7 year wait that’s already in place, you’d have to wait 8 years to take out of the draw whatever subset of that 125 people that is still alive and wants to put in again when they become elegible.

And in 8 years there will be thousands more applicants than there are now.

It’s crazy that it’s basically free to apply for the big 3.
Start by raising the prices, having a real app fee or requiring it all up front.
There isn’t a person out there that doesn’t have 500 or even 1000 for a sheep tag or 100 for an app fee that could do a sheep tag justice.

 

[cgasner1]

The un-intended consequence of a blanket OIL policy for MSG in MT is the unlimited sheep units then become OIL (Yet the draw odds didn't improve for LE permits). Also, let's say a 12yo kid draws a MSG goat tag the first year they apply. It would be nice for that individual to have the opportunity to hunt again later in life. These could be factors in why the MTWSF made efforts to clarify the odds and why these odds wouldn't improve through a OIL system. The issue came about when Rep. Denley Loge pushed for OIL. It's rumored that Denley just feels unfairly treated for not drawing his Perma Paradise ram tag.

If people want more opportunity, the solution is not to restrict the draw system further. The influx of new applicants will outweigh this change on an annual basis and your odds will likely still be worse than the year prior. You're better off working with the bios, conservation orgs, etc to form new seasons, offer more tags where it's sustainable, and disperse applicants.

If people are really that concerned about the odds, voice your opinion on the commercialization of hunting that's taking place across all mediums. Consulting magazines, media platforms, etc are all bringing more people into the draw annually than you would eliminate by implementing a OIL system.

I’m 100% against blanket policy’s for the state. It’s way too big and vast for that. personally I’ve already done a couple things in your response to increase my odds. I just don’t see how people can be ok with watching someone like matzinger kill his second breaks ram.

 

[406dn]

Like thousands of others, I am hoping for luck with drawing a ram license. The odds tell me that it will turn out like each previous year.

Even if populations could be doubled, the demand far exceeds the supply for these tags. So, these will always be very long odds tags.

Two things that could separate the wheat from the chaff, a bit, is to make the tags more expensive to apply for, and make that non refundable. That is often said to be unfair to those of modest means. It is, to a degree. But the expenses once you draw a tag dwarf the cost of the license.

The other would be that you can only apply for one of the big three, in the draw.

I'm in the final innings of my hunting career. I managed to draw three moose tags, by accepting that I'd hunt a cow moose. After taking a mountain goat in BC, I drew another tag for them, shortly after moving to Montana. I applied in an area that was remote, with a long hike required. I've called that good for mountain goats, and have not applied since then.

I told the person at FWP when putting in for a ram this year, that I'd trade all previous good fortune from earlier, if it meant I could draw a ram tag, and I would.

There just is no getting around the fact that the interest in hunting the big three is just far greater than can be accommodated.

 

[shrapnel]

The biggest problem on drawing statistics isn’t people that have already drawn once before in their lifetime, they are a minor player in the odds of drawing. The real problem is when they took away the cost of the tag up front, when you applied, and now you have loaded the drawing with a bunch of people that are not as serious, applying for only the cost of the entry and lessening the chances of the more serious applicants…

 

[cgasner1]

The biggest problem on drawing statistics isn’t people that have already drawn once before in their lifetime, they are a minor player in the odds of drawing. The real problem is when they took away the cost of the tag up front, when you applied, and now you have loaded the drawing with a bunch of people that are not as serious, applying for only the cost of the entry and lessening the chances of the more serious applicants…

I bet a lot more people also apply for their spouse now. When that spouse has zero interest being in the woods my wife has killed a couple bucks with me and has no interest in it so I don’t put her in have debated on getting her some elk points so when my boys are older we can do a family trip for her

 

[ccc23454]

I do think idaho has got this right: apply for 1of big 3 OR deer/elk/lope

 

[antlerradar]

You could also require that people applying for tags buy a prerequisite license and contribute to habitat, CO does. Not a big deal for residents but makes you think twice if you are a nonresident.

 

[Trial153]

I am lock for breaks sheep tag. I have a great feeling about my chances ….

 

[brockel]

I am lock for breaks sheep tag. I have a great feeling about my chances ….

As long as you don’t take mine good luck

 

[EYJONAS!]

Who gives a shit, some people get lucky and some don't its all in the game. A lot of those 8 and 9 goat tag people are from back in the 70s and 80s when they could basically buy the tags.

I can't understand why everyone loses their shit over a 12 yo drawing a sheep tag and they didn't. It is the game of the lottery. Some people have it some don't.

I do support the up front cost of the tags though. It would drastically help IMO.

Good luck everyone.

 

[BeartoothFront]

I can't understand why everyone loses their shit over a 12 yo drawing a sheep tag and they didn't. It is the game of the lottery. Some people have it some don't.

Would they act the same if they were in a store and a 12 year old got the last chocolate chip cookie?

Yes, comparing a sheep tag to a cookie is absurd but you get the sentiment.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Part of the reason MSGB tags are so special is the unpredictable and unlikely chance of getting a tag. Many people might say it’s easy for me to talk since I drew two last year but I honestly never expected to draw a sheep tag.

Statistically, two out of three applicants will never get to hunt sheep in a limited district. Until sheep populations can be grown to allow for more tags, that’s a reality that is going to get worse instead of better.

I would wholeheartedly support fronting the full price of the tag fee at application time to weed out the folks who really don’t care but apply just in case.

 

[Fire_9]

Would they act the same if they were in a store and a 12 year old got the last chocolate chip cookie?

Yes, comparing a sheep tag to a cookie is absurd but you get the sentiment.

Some of them, yes…

 

[Gerald Martin]

All this talk about whether a 12 year old or whoever draws a tag in the context of who deserves to enjoy the tag is baloney.

I know of a 70 year old guy that drew one a goat tag in of the best units in the NW of MT after applying for decades. He made one trip into the country in August and never returned to hunt for a goat. Did he deserve that tag more than a first time hunter?

 

[tjones]

I'm pushing 50 years applying for sheep and goat. I laugh at the new residents that whine after 5-10 years of not drawing.

When I hear that crap, I mention a push for a 10 year wait for new residents before they can apply. Things go quite really quick.

I know guys that have been here 20 years and have drawn all 3. I have boots that have been here longer than that.

 

[Nameless Range]

Whether one draws a big three tag or doesn't, isn't about points, luck, residency, deservedness, etc.

It's about whether the Hunting Gods favor you. Have you sacrificed anything to them lately? The blood is still on my hands, and the carcass has yet to rot, and I will be looking down on all of you - both literally and figuratively - when I am hunting Mountain Goats this fall.

 

[BirdManMike]

No one deserves a tag more than anyone else IMO.

But then I am one of those jerks that applies 'just in case' so . Id still put my name in the hat even if I were required to pay up front.

The bonus point system seems to breed a sense of entitlement. Ive just started buying them the past few years, tho Ive been applying longer. Complete random draw(1 chance for each applicant), once in a lifetime, pay up front then refunded would be my vote.

 

[Khunter]

Part of the reason MSGB tags are so special is the unpredictable and unlikely chance of getting a tag. Many people might say it’s easy for me to talk since I drew two last year but I honestly never expected to draw a sheep tag.

Statistically, two out of three applicants will never get to hunt sheep in a limited district. Until sheep populations can be grown to allow for more tags, that’s a reality that is going to get worse instead of better.

I would wholeheartedly support fronting the full price of the tag fee at application time to weed out the folks who really don’t care but apply just in case.

Agree. When Colorado ended fronting fees up front back in 2018, and gave bonus points at no cost that first year or two, after so many years of pay tag fee up front to play, it crushed the odds of drawing MSG.