Montana Mountain Goat HD Closures

[El Jason]

The same thing happened with goat populations on the Rocky Mountain Front, only about 25 years ago.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Very cool pictures theat that's awesome

 

[EYJONAS!]

Are they still planning that goat kill off in Washington. If so maybe they could transplant them over here instead......ya right. That'd be a little spendy i think for that to get approved.

 

[theat]

Are they still planning that goat kill off in Washington. If so maybe they could transplant them over here instead......ya right. That'd be a little spendy i think for that to get approved.

The park service is in the process of determining if they are going to commit to the removal. Should make the decision sometime this spring. If they do go ahead with it, it sounds like some of the goats will be relocated to the Northern Cascades.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...nal-park-targeting-mountain-goats-for-removal

 

[PaulRevere]

Here is what I've found in my research...and from talking to some people who definitely know about the goats.

For starters there's this:

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._1960-2015_and_field_biologists'_perspectives

I've read through this and the report by Jessy Coltrane.

Of particular importance is the level of harvest, and how small that number can be, before the native goat populations begin to see significant decreases.

Its pretty obvious that even moderate amounts of harvest can really do long-term, and from what I've seen, permanent damage to native goat herds. To the point that herd recovery simply wont happen.

I have a good friend that goat hunted the Sapphires before that season was ultimately closed. He drew a few tags in a relatively short time and saw decreased numbers of goats throughout the span of the years he drew. The hunt no longer exists, and despite the season being closed for a long time, that herd just isn't recovering, and IMO, never will. Its hanging on by a thread. The research seems to indicate that once you shoot goats down to a certain point, herd recovery just doesn't happen because of high mortality of young, plus the fact that in some cases, nannies don't reproduce until they're 5 or 6 years old. Meaning, they just don't have a long time where they can produce off-spring.

Its the same exact story in the Bitterroots...I remember for a long, long time there was a quota of 75 goat tags, valid for any drainage in unit 240. I also remember when it dropped to 50 tags, and finally when they went with tags valid by drainage. Again, I think those goats have reached the point where recovery isn't going to happen and will likely be shut down to hunting.

When this proposal that you're talking about was brought to my attention, I immediately got in touch with Roy Jacobs, who knows most all the areas in question that goat hunting is being stopped. He has talked with Jessy quite a bit and feels that her population estimates are pretty well in line with what is actually on the ground. Are a few goats being missed in surveys? Sure, you're never going to get them all. But Roy felt like the season closures were justified. We talked about whether or not the herds would recover if given time...the conclusion we came to is that optimism is pretty low.

Also worth noting is some of the stuff that Chadwick says in his book are pretty much coming true that native goat populations in Montana are not seeing the best of times and may very well be on the way of the passenger pigeon. It may take a long time, but I'm afraid that with some of the native herds...its just flat to late. Its a shame really, and its tough to completely throw the MTFWP under the bus...they just didn't have a lot of data in the 60's, 70's. But I can tell you that by the time my Brother drew a goat tag in Kootenai Creek in unit 240 in 1987, that the FWP knew goats were on the decline, if not on the ropes then. IIRC, that was the first year they went to drainage specific tags and again, IIRC, there were either 3 or 4 tags issued for the drainage.

I don't know what else to say other than in hind-sight I wish the quotas wouldn't have been so aggressive for so long. I'd also be more inclined to cut the MTFWP some slack if this was the only thing they've been too heavy handed on in regard to harvest. Its just not, though...just another in the long list of major mistakes.

I want to be wrong about this very badly, and would like to see the native goats bounce back. But, I cant be optimistic when I see what's happened in these units, as well as the sapphires and unit 240. I have a feeling its going to be a long time, if ever, when those goats are hunted again.

Many thanks Buzz for this response and the link to the mountain goat study. Thank too for the personal insight, it's much appreciated!

 

[Nameless Range]

This has been an eye opening thread. I guess I didn't know so many goat populations in MT were struggling.

For a decade or so now there has been what seems to be a family of mountain goats living in the Elkhorns, when I go fishing/hiking in the summer I see them. Never more than 4 or 5, and I have wondered if that is all there is up there and if they are on their way out. They basically have two mountains and a canyon to live in.

Seems like with mountain goats struggling, it is all the more reason to join the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance.

 

[rmyoung1]

Seems like with mountain goats struggling, it is all the more reason to join the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance.

Agreed. This thread has been eye-opening, for sure. As a nonresident with 13 points (age 40), I always assumed that MT would be a place we’re i could eventually hunt a billy. Over a 25% reduction in tags for nonresidents this year is depressing. Time to join a worthy organization and contribute to a worthy cause.

 

[BuzzH]

Agreed. This thread has been eye-opening, for sure. As a nonresident with 13 points (age 40), I always assumed that MT would be a place we’re i could eventually hunt a billy. Over a 25% reduction in tags for nonresidents this year is depressing. Time to join a worthy organization and contribute to a worthy cause.

I wouldn't ever dissuade anyone from applying for tags, or joining worthwhile groups. But there is a bigger picture here...and that is, will it do any good to throw a gob of money at issues like this?

For the last 20 years, I've seen mountains of cash being thrown at all kinds of species, on dozens and dozens of "fixes"...mule deer, sheep, goats, and moose...and yet populations and opportunity for all of those is actually worse now than 20 years ago.

IMO, rather than just throwing money, like a bucket of chit, all over the wall to see what sticks, I think we need to focus efforts, money, and time a lot more than we currently do. Perhaps time to pull back to the 10K foot view and realign priorities and be more wise with how we attempt to tackle some of these problems. Maybe time to get serious and admit what the real problems are...and invest in trying to solve those.

As harsh as it may sound, there may be certain herds that trying to "help" by throwing gobs of money at them, may be an exercise in futility and throwing good money at bad. Maybe a better approach is to use those as a learning tool, monitor, and try not to screw up herds that you can make a difference on. Herds where its not too late to do the right thing.

I don't know...just more to consider as we all try to do the right thing for wildlife.

 

[bigsky2]

I see the tags for 313 were cut back big time as well, I wonder if this is a result of winter kill or if they were getting too aggressive with the permits.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Joining the RMGA is a great option, I have a 3 year membership when that is up I will be purchasing a life membership. Pete and the boys with that organization are doing great things and giving our biologist more and more information every year. I think its pretty easy to say that the Mountain Goats have to be one of the most understudied species in North American. So every little bit helps.

 

[Redside]

I was just looking at this the other day to figure out where to apply and was wondering what was going on. I went back and looked at the previous years regs.

I have digital copies since 2012 and the Crazies had 84 either sex tags from 2012 to 2015 each year. Since then have been steadily decreasing and this year they have 15 either and 5 female, wow.

 

[whiskeydog]

MT FWP posted this short video on their FB page last week. In it, they say the native herds are struggling, while introduced herds are doing well. Any idea why that would be the case??

https://www.facebook.com/MontanaFWP/videos/1719512131425298/

 

[El Jason]

I wouldn't ever dissuade anyone from applying for tags, or joining worthwhile groups. But there is a bigger picture here...and that is, will it do any good to throw a gob of money at issues like this?

For the last 20 years, I've seen mountains of cash being thrown at all kinds of species, on dozens and dozens of "fixes"...mule deer, sheep, goats, and moose...and yet populations and opportunity for all of those is actually worse now than 20 years ago.

IMO, rather than just throwing money, like a bucket of chit, all over the wall to see what sticks, I think we need to focus efforts, money, and time a lot more than we currently do. Perhaps time to pull back to the 10K foot view and realign priorities and be more wise with how we attempt to tackle some of these problems. Maybe time to get serious and admit what the real problems are...and invest in trying to solve those.

As harsh as it may sound, there may be certain herds that trying to "help" by throwing gobs of money at them, may be an exercise in futility and throwing good money at bad. Maybe a better approach is to use those as a learning tool, monitor, and try not to screw up herds that you can make a difference on. Herds where its not too late to do the right thing.

I don't know...just more to consider as we all try to do the right thing for wildlife.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[BuzzH]

MT FWP posted this short video on their FB page last week. In it, they say the native herds are struggling, while introduced herds are doing well. Any idea why that would be the case??

https://www.facebook.com/MontanaFWP/videos/1719512131425298/

I believe the research shows that when introduced herds first occupy new habitat, they respond well and populations climb like crazy. They eventually crash, then level off, and stay the same for a long, long time. I think its habitat related.

 

[EYJONAS!]

I am gonna agree with habitat a little and spiking and leveling out. I think a huge factor as well is nanny harvest. A goat has one of the lowest reproduction rates over a lifespan and it takes a nanny approximately 4 to 6 year to mature enough to breed. So the over harvesting of them could be disastrous to a herd. Not to mention the kids that are born and overcoming the first couple brutal years of life, living on the edge of a 500ft cliff at 10k plus feet. I would be curious to see harvest reports for some districts that are on the decline and see what the actual billy to nanny harvest ratio is in either sex units. Especially the ones with higher amounts of tags.

 

[BuzzH]

Not sure about most units, but here's the data from the units in question (from 2007-2016) Not sure how this would compare to other units though, but 22 nannies and 30 billies.

Unit
131- 20 goats (9N 11B)
132- 11 goats (3N 8B)
134- 10 goats (6N 4B)
141- 15 goats (3N 12B)
151- 7 goats (1N 6B)

 

[EYJONAS!]

So two of the three districts that are now closed on the list have a fairly high nanny harvest rate. Thanks for posting Buzz. What do you think the fwp could do to implement a Billy only program? Is that a answer to the decline issue in some areas? Having not taken a goat myself I've been on a couple hunts over the years I've also spent a fair amount of time hunting sheep amongst the goats. In my opinion if one takes their time enjoys themself and studies the goats their watching. I wouldn't say it's "easy" to determine a difference but it isn't very hard. Maybe it's just me but I've heard it time and time again, someone draws a tag, goes opening weekend and kills a immature goat or a nanny that's coming into prime age because they wanted to get it over with or elk season is coming up or they weren't going back up there. I know and understand it's "their" tag and they can use it at their discretion, i guess it's not how I'm gonna spend mine. Doesn't make much sense after waiting how ever many years to get a tag to jus get it over with.

 

[MTGomer]

How about doing away with the 7 year wait for people that harvest a Billy and making the tag once in a lifetime for people that harvest a nanny.

 

[belly-deep]

How about doing away with the 7 year wait for people that harvest a Billy and making the tag once in a lifetime for people that harvest a nanny.

It’s already a once in a lifetime tag for most people. I think if a hunter were staring at a goat and wanted to fill the tag, not getting another one would be little deterrent.

 

[2ski]

I actually watched the RMGA video last night to study up in case I ever get so lucky as to draw in my lifetime. I have noticed the crazies tag numbers just keep dropping down to 15 this year I've been wondering what has been going on with goat numbers. Do you think with the RMGA counts they are getting better counts than F&G was getting from Ariel survey's?

The Little Mermaid did a survey? Sorry, I don't ever comment on grammatical mistakes but I laughed a little when I read the auto-correction.


I'm curious to know the effect that eagles have had on the population. Back in the 70's and 80's when the bald eagle population was at drastic levels vs. now when you see a lot more. I could see that being something. I talked to a ski patroler at Moonlight Basin a few years ago and he was telling me that there was an abandoned kid or it's nanny had died or something. I don't remember. Anyway, when they came back the next day, it was gone. Not a track around. Just wing imprints on each side of where the kid was.