Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[SAJ-99]

This proposal changes that to allow them to pick both, which leads to a lot more hunter days and a lot higher probability of animals on private. I thought we wanted to curb opportunity back to get animals on public, not increase it?

I understand the thinking, I just don't think it will bear out in reality. And I will reiterate what others have said for like the 5th time in this thread, Montana is already full of archery hunters in September that push the elk to private anyway. Do agree that public land rifle hunters will be out in force that first snowfall to try to get those few straggler elk that like high country and only come down when they have to. But that has been a circus for years now, so I'm not sure anyone will notice a difference.

Personally, I would love to see LE everywhere. Every hunter should pick a weapon and a unit, MD and elk. MT could have opportunity units and some high quality units. Unfortunately MT hunters will have to give up opportunity. Most don't want to.

 

[antlerradar]

Years ago the head of WY Wildlife Div told a friend of mine that most MD poaching is during the last 2 weeks of NOv....rut......and laughed that MT continues to pound them thru November.

This is also when most of Montana's poaching happens, and it is a lot easier to get away with when you can use legitimate hunting as cover. Much easier to get away with shooting a buck where you shouldn't, fill someone else's tag, shoot more bucks than allowed or even night hunt during the season.

 

[FREAK]

it would allow 200k hunters to hunt deer and 200k hunters to hunt elk, each for a month with a rifle. If you thought the trailheads were packed now, get ready for double the traffic because everyone will be after the same thing at the same time. Doubling the hunter days per specie is sure to drive the animals to private even faster than the current rate. Not sure how something like that gets dismissed so quickly.

I think elk hunting in November for bulls is hard. The guys that give up and head east to blast a forky will probably give up on the elk hunting anyways by mid-late November. Elk are a little harder to find and shoot off roads. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you're giving the average Montana hunter a lot of credit.

 

[Shed God]

Just saying state wide LE unlimited provides opurtunity and then sprinkle in a few more limited units. Make it 1st choice only and if u buy a whitey tag, no choice.

Private. Outfitters, non resident and last but not least the public

 

[antlerradar]

Its already been stated earlier in this forum that change is coming. This administration and legislative body is not the one I would choose to carry forward changes in revising hunting seasons and regulations. I'm not a big fan of FWP, but in their defense I say they take a lot of low blow shots on issues in which their hands were tied or they simply had to eat SH&T and smile due to politics. I wish a few of them would voluntarily throw themselves on the sword and publicly share how they arrived at some conclusions before that institutional knowledge is gone forever.

A Mule Deer Management proposal will extend the rifle portion of deer hunting season from 5-weeks to 8-weeks, a 37.5% increase in the time period. This 8-week season (4 whitetail and 4 mule) will be carried out with today's most advanced tools and proficiency. An argument can be made that in turn a similar change in Outfitter operations will take place with Outfitters looking to expand lease holdings approximately by 30 percent or more. In doing so, will remove that much more land/access from the public hunting landscape. How much more public land will you be locked out of with this increase in holdings. And, dont forget only the best of the best will be leased up. Its a no brainer for landowners as it provides a change in management by limiting and selective harvest with an increase in payments and less headaches. The downside is there will be additional pressure and crowding on the accessible public land. The decline in Mule deer is complex for sure, but from my experience a sizable portion of those good back in the big buck areas have either been discovered or more so no longer an option to hunt. They've been leased up. As more property is leased up, the remaining less product able is over hunted at a higher rate. In other words the quality of hunting erodes twice as fast. Landowners today are more selective on who gets to hunt and when for wide range of reasons, only one of which is that their place is now leased out. Are we really putting the mule deer situation first on a level playing field, or using it to advance an agenda.

There is also the flaw that I have beat to death is that it further promotes hunter migration between seasons. Argue all you want that it dont exist, but its everywhere you look. Whether it be antelope, bird or deer/elk season here in Montana or turn on the TV and see how much occurs from state to state. Its a reality and will be further promoted.

I see good and bad in this for outfitters. Outfitters that depend on deer coming down out of the mountains and hills to rut on hay fields will be hurt, outfitters that manage the herds that live on there leases will do better. Virtually all of the new leasing that is happening now is by hunting clubs, mostly resident. This new demand is almost entirely driven by poor quality hunting on public land. I can not speak for outfitters, but I suspect that some of them support this because they see the writing on the wall. Very hard for an outfitter to compete for the best leases with a hunt club. Keep the same seasons and hunt clubs will put many outfitters out of business. You may not like outfitters, but this is no win for sportsman.

 

[antlerradar]

In some areas, I don't think it is, but that's up to locals to push it through.

Statewide Limited Entry would be viewed as far too drastic a step in terms of reducing hunter opportunity for mule deer. The MT Hunter Surveys show that people want to hunt mule deer every year, and they aren't too picky about antler size. They also show that people want to hunt deer in the rut.

Outfitter concerns around the 90/10 split, landowner nervousness around how LE Elk has played out, and the general sentiment from the MT hunting population that they want to hunt mule deer every year if they desire carry a lot of weight with the commission, which means moving to LE statewide is not going to happen.

Not to mention any meaningful LE would be selling substantially few licenses resulting in a big revenue hit.

 

[Shed God]

Make it, that u have to buy the license to apply.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Not to mention any meaningful LE would be selling substantially few licenses resulting in a big revenue hit.

LE also tends to also displace local hunters who are looking to just hunt. So while you may get fewer mule deer shot with LE, you push that pressure off on to whitetail and to MD units that are general, creating more issues in those places.

Here is the 2023 Resident Mule Deer Survey: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...ule-deer-resident-deer-hunter-survey-2023.pdf

What I see in here is that Montana resident hunters want:

1.) To hunt close to home
2.) To hunt mule deer every year
3.) There is some increasing desire for older age, more mature animals among residents
4.) They want to hunt multiple species at the same time.

The proposal as is provides for this, as well as for keeping LE areas that are currently limited in place, along with the rut hunt season structure.

Additive to the antlered portion are strong calls for limiting antlerless harvest on public land, issuing limited permits for antlerless and removing antlerless harvest entirely from public lands in R3.

Antlerless harvest has been the largest growth sector in deer hunting in Montana over the last few years. There have been some steps to address that, but they are far from comprehensive: 1 time prohibition of shooting antlerless mule deer on public land in Regions 6 & 7 & the legislature passed SB 281 in 2023 to limit the number of antlerless licenses to be sold to non-residents. As celebrated as those two things are, they are not (in the case of R6 & 7) permanent, nor do they deal with overall management of antlerless animals.

 

[8andcounting]

What percentage of those are going to select whitetail over October mule deer? I'm going to choose whitetail every year.

Small %

 

[Schaaf]

Small %

I think you’d be surprised.

 

[SwaggyD]

Small %

3%? 5%? 20%? 35%? What are you considering small?

 

[Shed God]

The ones that have private land or access to it!

 

[Mtn-time]

The success of this proposal going forward will be based in part on its merits, but more so on its delivery and how good the originators are in crafting palatable responses to silence the public issues that arise. Whether or not those responses have any meat to them is another discussion. They do not have to go "All In" to have a winning hand.

 

[Jon Boy]

Small changes have proven to make Jack Schit difference in the last 20 years - including all the districts that have went limited entry. The only unintended consequence of this are people (you) not getting to hunt with a pocket full of tags to shoot whatever, wherever, whenever, the way we’ve always done it.

I haven’t shot a deer in years, and the last one was 8.5 y/0 170” MTN buck. I pass probably 4 or 5 mature bucks every year. So yah I guess I don’t fit that description. Pretty sad to see the reaction to some criticism and the arrogance put forth by those defending the proposal. I mean did you guys really think what was proposed was the end all be all with out any need for taking criticism and making changes to the proposal? Laughable.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I haven’t shot a deer in years, and the last one was 8.5 y/0 170” MTN buck. I pass probably 4 or 5 mature bucks every year.

Was it this one?

2011 MT Muley

I shot this little one on 11/11/11. I got him mixed up with another big buck in the same drainage and ended up spooking them and took a running shot on what I thought was the big buck. Walked up to him only to see the big one running off. Oh well im still happy with him. Also is a pic of my...

www.hunttalk.com

Or maybe this one?

Deer - lets see em

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum Here are my biggest deer (so far) B&C Whitetail from SD Great whiteail! You score it? Must be at least 180? Do you mind me asking what unit you were in? Public or Private?

www.hunttalk.com

 

[mtmuley]

Was it this one?

2011 MT Muley

I shot this little one on 11/11/11. I got him mixed up with another big buck in the same drainage and ended up spooking them and took a running shot on what I thought was the big buck. Walked up to him only to see the big one running off. Oh well im still happy with him. Also is a pic of my...

www.hunttalk.com

Or maybe this one?

Deer - lets see em

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum Here are my biggest deer (so far) B&C Whitetail from SD Great whiteail! You score it? Must be at least 180? Do you mind me asking what unit you were in? Public or Private?

www.hunttalk.com

Don't mess with the Hog man. mtmuley

 

[Gerald Martin]

Just saying state wide LE unlimited provides opurtunity and then sprinkle in a few more limited units. Make it 1st choice only and if u buy a whitey tag, no choice.

Private. Outfitters, non resident and last but not least the public

Statewide LE unlimited isn’t really LE, by the way.

 

[mtmuley]

Statewide LE unlimited isn’t really LE, by the way.

There were some LE unlimited units near me. They have since gone general. I really wish hard number harvest stats were available from before and after. mtmuley

 

[Shed God]

Gerald it is LE because it limits the hunting to those that applied for that unit to hunting that unit.

Basically the units that are heavily private and leased out. LE unlimited works well for them. Gaurenteed tags. $$$$.

LE limited sprinkled in to chase the working man's dream.

LE provides hunters in the field. Collect the data off those that draw. Mandatory. Set qoutas based off all the data.

 

[Shed God]

Unit 302 was LE unlimited. Bio was Craig fager, retired. Very good bio. My opinion. It was actually working well. Plus it protected unit 300 LE limited to a point. From my understanding it went general because MD numbers were too high on private land that didn't allow hunting. Idk what I was told.