Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[rogerthat]

I’m curious, why do you choose to hunt such poor habitat every year?

Not to mention why do private ranch deer owners pay ridiculous amounts for the breeder sires? Why do they care if it’s not genetics? I’m not arguing montieths research(I listen to all the cokslide podcasts) but even they would admit their research is still developing. I will bet money they are going to link genetics to big bucks. That’s just common sense. Anyway since big antlers are so unpalatable to talk about for the hunting community I’m not sure this topic really matters anyway.

 

[sclancy27]

I’m curious, why do you choose to hunt such poor habitat every year?

 

[xcskier_hunter]

Montana has been applying some degree of culling to top end deer longer than the attached study but it would be my suspicion that a combination of few total mature deer and the high-grading of high potential deer before they reach maturity is a bigger problem than the genetic pool of the herd.

https://deerassociation.com/qdm-works-culling-doesnt/

 

[sclancy27]

Not to mention why do private ranch deer owners pay ridiculous amounts for the breeder sires? Why do they care if it’s not genetics? I’m not arguing montieths research(I listen to all the cokslide podcasts) but even they would admit their research is still developing. I will bet money they are going to link genetics to big bucks. That’s just common sense. Anyway since big antlers are so unpalatable to talk about for the hunting community I’m not sure this topic really matters anyway.

Captive deer breeders pay big $$$ for sires because they can control feeding, ie habitat. So genetics play the dominant role. Their feeding protocols are still affecting the way the genes are expressed, but they can pick those high responders and transfer those genes into another generation of limitless nutrition. It then build on itself until you have whitetail that look like moose.

 

[rogerthat]

One last point @sclancy27 why did the late 40s and 50s kick out so many big bucks in Montana?

Captive deer breeders pay big $$$ for sires because they can control feeding, ie habitat. So genetics play the dominant role. Their feeding protocols are still affecting the way the genes are expressed, but they can pick those high responders and transfer those genes into another generation of limitless nutrition. It then build on itself until you have whitetail that look like moose.

Agreed but to insinuate buck genetics play no part is pretty hard for me to believe. I had never seen a drop tine buck in my life. In 2015 I found an area that had a drop tine buck. I have now seen three of them. Coincidence? I think not. Consider I have been looking at deer for close to 40 years.

 

[sclancy27]

One last point @sclancy27 why did the late 40s and 50s kick out so many big bucks in Montana?
Agreed but to insinuate buck genetics play no part is pretty hard for me to believe. I had never seen a drop tine buck in my life. In 2015 I found an area that had a drop tine buck. I have now seen three of them. Coincidence? I think not. Consider I have been looking at deer for close to 40 years.

I'm not saying it doesn't play a part, it's just in wild population nutrition plays the larger role.

And as far as the 40s and 50s....I'm going to throw out my hypothesis. Wildfire was much more common in the west than today, as was logging. Plus way less development, etc. This created excellent habitat conditions. Concurrently, I can guestimate that far more bucks reached older ages than today for a number of reasons.

 

[DFS]

Going off studies that come from states that don’t have an uncontrolled rut hunt is a stretch for me. It’s apples to oranges, we need more data as the people that are scared to hunt in October are crying.

 

[rogerthat]

I'm not saying it doesn't play a part, it's just in wild population nutrition plays the larger role.

And as far as the 40s and 50s....I'm going to throw out my hypothesis. Wildfire was much more common in the west than today, as was logging. Plus way less development, etc. This created excellent habitat conditions. Concurrently, I can guestimate that far more bucks reached older ages than today for a number of reasons.

I agree. I think when the science is settled(if it ever is and I will be a mushroom or mushroom fertilizer) that it will be an all of the above thing. Genetics, habitat/nutrition, age. Hopefully they will be able to determine what factors have the greatest effect and maybe it is habitat like you say but I think genetics will be equal or greater based off my anecdotal experience.

 

[The Hedgehog]

No, I’m saying let’s start there and get a base line and make some small changes to get buy in from the general public before you try pushing major season changes. There are many unintended consequences to what is being proposed and I don’t think it’s going to do what is intended. Again my example of all the units that border Montana in Wyoming and Idaho have all very similar shitty mule deer hunting yet have very different season structures.

I’m all for better mule deer hunting. If you want to actually make it better make everything limited entry and eliminate doe hunting and you’ll have that.

Small changes have proven to make Jack Schit difference in the last 20 years - including all the districts that have went limited entry. The only unintended consequence of this are people (you) not getting to hunt with a pocket full of tags to shoot whatever, wherever, whenever, the way we’ve always done it.

 

[rogerthat]

Small changes have proven to make Jack Schit difference in the last 20 years - including all the districts that have went limited entry. The only unintended consequence of this are people (you) not getting to hunt with a pocket full of tags to shoot whatever, wherever, whenever, the way we’ve always done it.

First thing that came into my sick deranged heterosexual mind from your post

 

[The Hedgehog]

First thing that came into my sick deranged mind from your post

Is that on your playlist?

 

[DFS]

It would be interesting to see what some of these lead biologists think of Montana management. It can’t be healthy for the deer herd, big bucks or not.

 

[Stifler]

One last point @sclancy27 why did the late 40s and 50s kick out so many big bucks in Montana?
Agreed but to insinuate buck genetics play no part is pretty hard for me to believe. I had never seen a drop tine buck in my life. In 2015 I found an area that had a drop tine buck. I have now seen three of them. Coincidence? I think not. Consider I have been looking at deer for close to 40 years.

I'd say because in the 20s it was 1 buck law, no does to be killed. 20 30 years of that looks pretty good.

 

[antlerradar]

Antlers from three different bucks, all of them older from the same bachelor group. There was also two other bucks that were also old and small in the same group, I just didn't bother to keep there antlers when I found a few of them. The single set is well over 200, One of the top bucks I have ever seen. The middle buck is pushing 180 in his best year ( the second to last year). He died of natural causes and old age. That happen in the 90's on public land in Montana. Not any more. The other buck is a weak forked buck that will not break 140. These antlers are the best he ever had. I also have antlers from another monster buck that lived a few years later and two miles away that are very similar to the big single set. I wonder if they are half brothers with the same mother or even full brothers.
View attachment 328624

This was the norm back in the 80's and 90's. You could find bachelor group like this in just about every roadless drainage. One or two great bucks, a half dozen or so older bucks with small to mediocre antlers and a bunch of younger bucks, some that looked like they would have some potential and others that didn't.

 

[SwaggyD]

younger bucks, some that looked like they would have some potential

These are what you targeted, right?

 

[antlerradar]

These are what you targeted, right?

I probably should have shot some of the old two and three points I saw back then,

 

[Rie Bread]

Is that on your playlist?

That’s a funny word for spank bank

 

[cgasner1]

Going off studies that come from states that don’t have an uncontrolled rut hunt is a stretch for me. It’s apples to oranges, we need more data as the people that are scared to hunt in October are crying.

Another thought I had this morning is people are looking at the deer being taken in other states. No one is really looking at the deer that are surviving. Wyoming has winter ranges where people go and look at the deer. Those are bucks that made the season because they where hunted in October

 

[antlerradar]

Just think about what G and H would look like if WY have OTC tags and you could shoot all the bucks rutting in the open sagebrush on winter range. G and H would look like, Montana.

 

[Flynarrow]

Just think about what G and H would look like if WY have OTC tags and you could shoot all the bucks rutting in the open sagebrush on winter range. G and H would look like, Montana.

Years ago the head of WY Wildlife Div told a friend of mine that most MD poaching is during the last 2 weeks of NOv....rut......and laughed that MT continues to pound them thru November.