Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[Irishman]

Tell me again how overcrowding is going to keep elk accessible on public land? And again, why is this proposal so worried about the archery elk season? Bowhunters are not the user group stacking up mule deer. I'm simply asking for consideration to keep that first week of October and maybe add the 5 days in August as suggested. That is still "giving up something" - honestly, one of the best hunts I had this year was second week of October. Some bowhunters won't be okay with that either so I am not speaking for everyone but just myself that I would consider a season shift but not a season loss. If goal is to really reduce the pressure/number of deer killed/protect mule deer, then mule deer hunters, those who elect to chose to chase MD, then lose a week or two. Seems simple enough, if that was the case, I would choose WT...so would a lot of folks... isn't that the point? Just something to consider.

Honestly, I would prefer to keep archery season the way it is now. However if there have to be changes then start Sept 1st, and go for 5 weeks, so through Oct 5th. That would leave 26 days to Mule deer hunt.
Someone suggested that the opinions of some on this subject may not be those of the majority on this forum. I'd add that the opinions of those on this forum may not reflect the opinions of the majority of hunters in the state. I could be that most people like the status quo, and don't bother to get on forums to try and change things to suit their desires.

 

[BuzzH]

You may not have sympathy for archery hunters Buzz but I will be surprised if this proposal goes anywhere with out some buy in by archery hunters. Honestly I do both so I’m not an archery hunter or a rifle hunter just a hunter. Hell last year I whipped out a blunderbuss. Anyway I’m not surprised archery specialists see this as they are taking the biggest cut. When I look at this impartially it looks like I could be hiking around with a rifle looking for mule deer and than elk for two months straight. That doesn’t seem like a cut. Something for the group to ponder on. I fully support the proposal vs status quo fyi.

Well, my answer to that is an archery hunter could hunt from September through November if they so choose, 90+ straight days.

 

[antlerradar]

Because it will not help with overcrowding- packing the same number of people in a shorter season exasperates the problem.

I don't think that the increase in crowding will be that much. I don't see many archers out the last week and the ones that do hunt the last week have already been hunting most of the first five weeks of the season. Almost no one is waiting to the last week to start archery hunting.
Do I want to hunt the first two week of Oct for elk and deer, absolutely, Some of my most memorable hunts have happened on the last day of the season, The best whitetail every I took was on Oct 4th, but I also understand that I am not going to get everything I want.

I do however value you input, doesn't mean I am going to agree every time. I hope you stick around HT. I bet we agree on more issues than we disagree on.

 

[antlerradar]

Can someone tell me exactly what the goal is? Also, how will we measure whether or not we met the goal?

Spread hunting pressure out and keep/grow the public land herds is what I hope we can accomplish.

 

[antlerradar]

There’s a lot to juggle and a lot of things that can be tweaked to reach our end goal. Predictably, most folks’ initial response is for protection of their preferred opportunity. Interesting enough, some of our most vocal critics of removing opportunity in the form of shortening seasons are openly calling for LE across the state as a way of preserving long seasons. .

As soon as those critics started to not draw tags they would be pushing for an Oct season because you could give out more LE tags during Oct than you could during Nov,

 

[antlerradar]

Perhaps the reason that Hunttalk is the primary support group is because we’ve hashed out a lot of these ideas ad nauseam for years.

Some of us in the group started out on opposite sides of the spectrum advocating quite strongly against each other. If a person bothered to research the user names of those of us on the group you probably wouldn’t have to dig very far to find us in heated and sometimes personally disparaging conversations.

Fake News, No one's mind is ever changed on the internet

 

[Pagosa]

Rifle hunters, who there are more than double of, are giving up time in October for rifle elk hunting. They aren't whining about over-crowding.

I fail to have sympathy for archery hunters, fair is fair. Archery hunters get a month of elk hunting, during prime time, with less than half the hunters and you're crying about over-crowding?

Not going to find a shoulder to cry on here.

Like I said elk need a break as well. Keeping constant pressure on them from September through as last as December 1 doesn't work.

Another fun fact, if you keep bull to cow ratios higher and more elk available on public land, you don't need all of September and 2/3 of October to kill a bull.

This is a first for me, Buzz I agree with you. There I said it.

It doesn't take months or weeks to get a decent animal in a good managed area, sometimes just 2-3 days in a good area with decent populations.

I want to know how these people can afford to hunt for 28 days, or over several months? I might get a week for both deer and elk.

 

[DFS]

As soon as those critics started to not draw tags they would be pushing for an Oct season because you could give out more LE tags during Oct than you could during Nov,

I do find it is funny the people that have cried you are taking my opportunity away, are suggesting things should go LE and take their opportunity away. Maybe Montanans don’t value opportunity maybe they value the opportunity to hunt when wildlife are vulnerable. Which leads us to LE. Not where I would want to go but those biased fwp surveys are rock solid.

 

[golfer]

Spread hunting pressure out and keep/grow the public land herds is what I hope we can accomplish.

In all actual honesty, do you feel this is measurable from the pressure stand point? Will it come down to a word of mouth between hunters or do you feel there is a better way to gauge that metric? I know we can base the herd health off FWP counts that they publish.

 

[DFS]

In all actual honesty, do you feel this is measurable from the pressure stand point? Will it come down to a word of mouth between hunters or do you feel there is a better way to gauge that metric? I know we can base the herd health off FWP counts that they publish.

Do you hunt whitetail the same places you hunt mule deer?

 

[golfer]

Do you hunt whitetail the same places you hunt mule deer?

There are places I have hunted that hold both. But to be honest, if I spend 2-3 days a year deer hunting any more thats it. Purely asking because I don’t have an answer or suggestion on how it would be measured.

 

[antlerradar]

Why are MOGA affiliates so involved in this. I would think the majority of those properties outfitted are managed for both quantity and quality based on the clients expectations. Is this really about Mule Deer or separating seasons to better accomodate existing and new clients. I fail to see why they have a dog in the fight about DIY mule deer hunters when they are doing their own housekeeping. I dont have an answer for the decline in mule deer other than we have arrived at a threshold of harvest and carrying capacity, and folks continue it just blast em. The managed special permit districts are not exactly producing numbers of stellar bucks either. So I think this shifting season dates and blah blah is a business model desire.

I think that there is a possibility that outfitters might pick up a few extra clients with an October season. The rut is the great equalizer. Success is more of a function of luck and less a function of hard work, skill or knowledge. The reality is that a NR that never sets foot on the Custer until the start of his hunt has nearly the same chance of shooting a nice buck as I do with my nearly 45 years of experience and thousands of hours of scouting time after the start of the rut. With out the rut NR are going to be at a much bigger disadvantage and a few my opt to hire an outfitter to improve their chances.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

I

Hi Jed!

PS. No Californians in our group either.
Unless @Eric Albus isn’t shooting straight with us.
View attachment 324715

Isnt @Ben Lamb in Michigan or Minnesota??

 

[antlerradar]

In all actual honesty, do you feel this is measurable from the pressure stand point? Will it come down to a word of mouth between hunters or do you feel there is a better way to gauge that metric? I know we can base the herd health off FWP counts that they publish.

Right now the big crush of hunters is in the 2 1/2 weeks centered on peak rut. Take the mule deer rut out of the picture and hunters will spread themselves out better.

 

[8andcounting]

In all actual honesty, do you feel this is measurable from the pressure stand point? Will it come down to a word of mouth between hunters or do you feel there is a better way to gauge that metric? I know we can base the herd health off FWP counts that they publish.

Well I mean - NR harvest is 57% in r7 right ? But surveys are junk …..

 

[Schaaf]

In all actual honesty, do you feel this is measurable from the pressure stand point? Will it come down to a word of mouth between hunters or do you feel there is a better way to gauge that metric? I know we can base the herd health off FWP counts that they publish.

I think I’ve got a way to generate that data but I’m waiting for the information from someone that would have it. I don’t know how you could project that into the future based on the proposal but at the least it would give you a baseline to reference.

 

[Sytes]

Speaking of mule deer, the primary objective of this draft, why not press a direct district/region ability to regulate the hunt pressure based on their (mule deer) annual population/quality status?

If low, LE draw. If high, general.

Curious if "KISS" is simply overlooked.

 

[golfer]

I think I’ve got a way to generate that data but I’m waiting for the information from someone that would have it. I don’t know how you could project that into the future based on the proposal but at the least it would give you a baseline to reference.

If you get that. Pass it along I’d be interested in seeing it. Like I said I am more curious how it would be measured.

 

[rogerthat]

Speaking of mule deer, the primary objective of this draft, why not press a direct district/region ability to regulate the hunt pressure based on their (mule deer) annual population/quality status?

If low, LE draw. If high, general.

Curious if "KISS" is simply overlooked.

Hunter displacement. When units go LE, hunters that have historically gen season hunted those units are displaced to the remaining gen seasons still open putting more pressure on that resource. Sometimes causing those units to be LE. Can be a bit of a snowball effect going down hill. Idaho has experienced this a little.

 

[Sytes]

...are displaced to the remaining gen seasons still open putting more pressure on that resource

Example: Moving from mule deer that turned LE to elk that is general season, above population/quality?

If managed as such, would that become a "hunting based" regulated process for population/quality?