Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[BuzzH]

I can see how people would see it as an R6 and R7 problem.
I would even say that that’s the first thing that comes to my mind.
However, the reason for that is, is that for those of us that aren’t that old, (I’m 33) r6 and r7 are the only places in Montana we have ever seen decent deer hunting. Western Montana, most my life was already at the point that 6/7 are getting to now.
If you speak with older people or just take a look at the record books or photos, or just look west across the ID border you see that western Montana doesn’t have yo be this way and hasn’t always been.

Exactly, I'm a fair bit older than you and the mule deer hunting in Western Montana used to be very good.

For many that didn't get to see what it was like, they just think everything is fine, they don't know, what they don't know. Mule deer hunting everywhere I've hunted them in Montana since 1979 has only declined. I would say by the early 90's mule deer hunting was total garbage in most of Western Montana.

The place I've hunted the most, I finally saw a single mule deer doe the hunting season before last, prior to that it had been 7 years. So, in a place I could see mule deer every single day I hunted it, there was a 9 year stretch, I saw a single doe.

It's so far gone that most people that have either recently started hunting, or moved to Montana in the past 20-25 years, they'll tell you, "Its always been this way, this isn't mule deer country".

Same with elk hunting in the Bob, I've had to listen to newbies exclaim with absolute certainty that, "there never has been many elk in the Bob".

Crazy how quickly a new "normal" can be proclaimed, and I often wonder how many new, young biologists bother to research the past in the areas they are assigned to manage?

 

[Elktrack]

Exactly, I'm a fair bit older than you and the mule deer hunting in Western Montana used to be very good.

For many that didn't get to see what it was like, they just think everything is fine, they don't know, what they don't know. Mule deer hunting everywhere I've hunted them in Montana since 1979 has only declined. I would say by the early 90's mule deer hunting was total garbage in most of Western Montana.

The place I've hunted the most, I finally saw a single mule deer doe the hunting season before last, prior to that it had been 7 years. So, in a place I could see mule deer every single day I hunted it, there was a 9 year stretch, I saw a single doe.

It's so far gone that most people that have either recently started hunting, or moved to Montana in the past 20-25 years, they'll tell you, "Its always been this way, this isn't mule deer country".

Same with elk hunting in the Bob, I've had to listen to newbies exclaim with absolute certainty that, "there never has been many elk in the Bob".

Crazy how quickly a new "normal" can be proclaimed, and I often wonder how many new, young biologists bother to research the past in the areas they are assigned to manage?

Exactly.
These are the folks that are not going to want their dates changed and elk seasons modified to accommodate helping MD in R7 & 6. At least that’s how they see it.

The new normal, as you put it, is acceptable and they don’t want to lose any “opportunities “ they currently have. I hope I’m wrong.

 

[BuzzH]

Exactly.
These are the folks that are not going to want their dates changed and elk seasons modified to accommodate helping MD in R7 & 6. At least that’s how they see it.

The new normal, as you put it, is acceptable and they don’t want to lose any “opportunities “ they currently have. I hope I’m wrong.

Right, and the sooner the guys that remember what it used to be like, die, the sooner they can get to hammering what little is left. I bet hardly anyone slinging their thoughts and expert opinions, remembers when a hunter could kill 2 buck mule deer a year in Montana.

This plan needs to pass as its proposed. Its not about region 6 or 7, its a solid plan that should have been implemented 35 years ago statewide.

 

[antlerradar]

So, is the October season proposal to increase the herd? To increase buck to doe ratio's? To increase the male age structure in the herd? Will the split elk and deer season and pick your region spread hunting pressure out better then currently, or make it way worse in the Eastern part of the State?

Montana has millions of acres of private land that hunting is not allowed on or very strictly controlled. It also has a number of LE units were hunting is curtailed. If reduced hunting pressure in Nov increased herds, you would still see the massive amounts of animals on the private land that you used to. But, you don't. Numbers have fallen across public land, private land, LE units, etc.

So, I would just say to really think about these proposals, because once you succeed in getting them into place, it will be almost impossible to change them and the outcomes of these changes could be worse then before.

I think we need to add a third options to the October season, It is an access proposal. In the west deer come down out of the mountains to winter, like @MTTW said we are hunting them on winter range. The farther down the mountain you get the more likely that the winter range is one of those strictly controled private places. In the east most of the does are on the private river and creek bottoms, come Nov. the bucks will be will be with the does on that strictly controled private land. The Nov season worked great back in the 70's when all that private land was open to just about anyone. Not any more, and Montana has spent years trying to find ways to get that access back with limited success. Mostly it is a one step forward, two steps back deal. Instead of wanting access to places where it is not going to happen, move the season to when more of the deer are in places where there is access currently.

 

[antlerradar]

Just a few observations from what I have seen over the years and some possible unintended consequences from the proposal. Several people here have alluded to technology as being a big change. I agree with that. I would add that the technology includes the ability to travel is much easier now then in the past. This has really accelerated in the last 5 yrs, but, has been ongoing for about the last 10. One big change we see is that the average Montana resident is much more mobile now. All of the NR have been going to all the hot button areas for quite some time, but, what we see now is the relative ease, and willingness of residents to be more mobile in the State.

The proposal as written makes for a 31 day season Oct 1st to Oct 31; pick your region; then an elk hunt Nov 1st to Nov 30th; In the example I am going to give, the hunter is a resident of Dillon, is mostly an elk hunter, but will take an opportunity mule deer buck if he sees one but never leaves Region 3 to hunt. He has two teenagers and a wife who likes to hunt. With seperating the seasons, this family could easily load up there brand new F-250, set the cruise on 95 mph, jump on I-90 and be sitting in the Sagebrush Inn and Suites in Broadus in a little over 4.5 hrs. His wife could drive, and he could spend that time on his OnX and any of the several online hunting forums and by the time they arrive know exactly where he is going to hunt the next morning. Hunts for 3 days, they all take bucks, and then he goes home. All good for him, because he then just does his normal elk hunt in region 3.

That opportunity take in western MT is one of the reasons mule deer have a difficult time recovering in the west. Add doe tags into the mix and it is even tougher.

Could the family head east for a long weekend, sure they could, but filling four tags in three days in Oct is going to be a whole different story that when it is cold and snowy in mid Nov.
Twenty some years ago I noticed two Western MT hunters hunting some public land opening week near me. I knew there was a better than good non typical buck using the public so I stopped and asked how they were doing. They were coy at first but with a little prompting they fessed up and admitted that they had seen the buck cross the road in the dark when there were over hunting antelope two weeks earlier. So far they had yet to see the buck and they left a few days later frustrated. The fact is digging a mature buck out of the juniper jungle canyons with no snow in Oct. on that public land is difficult. It take patience and knowledge of the land to be successful and even then success is far from guaranteed. I someone from western Montana is going to spend the years of boots on the ground time it is going to take to be consistently successful in Oct, more power to them.
As for the Buck, A fourteen year old kid shot him in our meadows at 10:00 in the morning two weeks later in the season.

 

[8andcounting]

This plan needs to pass as its proposed. It’s not about region 6 or 7, it’s a solid plan that should have been implemented 35 years ago statewide.

This plan - so you’re not up for any discussion on it ? Just this is it ?

 

[8andcounting]

I think Think it’s got good points and bad

 

[SAJ-99]

I think Think it’s got good points and bad

Kind of like life.
A lot of good points have been brought up. Like, the number of MD killed with a bow is pretty low, so cutting that season isn't doing much other than "sharing the pain". But the pain should be shared.

I think the originators put themselves in a box by trying to retain sufficient opportunity to get this through. The reality is a lot can be solved by reducing pressure/opportunity. The easiest way to do that is to stick to the NR cap, but that creates a problem of the $$$. I have argued that if the hypothetical family from Dillion can spend $200 in gas hunting in the eastern half the state, they can spend more for the tags. If you present a price increase as maintaining opportunity while reducing NRs it is an easier win. Maybe MOGA won't like it because the client's odds get worse? there are a lot of moving pieces to this puzzle. Given the feedback from the originators, it seems all are on the table and literally ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. The people that whine like a 6 year old are the ones they will never please and should just ignore. Although I'm not sure FWP is willing to do the same as some of those 6yr olds might be in the legislature, LOL.

 

[8andcounting]

Kind of like life.
A lot of good points have been brought up. Like, the number of MD killed with a bow is pretty low, so cutting that season isn't doing much other than "sharing the pain". But the pain should be shared.

I think the originators put themselves in a box by trying to retain sufficient opportunity to get this through. The reality is a lot can be solved by reducing pressure/opportunity. The easiest way to do that is to stick to the NR cap, but that creates a problem of the $$$. I have argued that if the hypothetical family from Dillion can spend $200 in gas hunting in the eastern half the state, they can spend more for the tags. If you present a price increase as maintaining opportunity while reducing NRs it is an easier win. Maybe MOGA won't like it because the client's odds get worse? there are a lot of moving pieces to this puzzle. Given the feedback from the originators, it seems all are on the table and literally ANYTHING is a step in the right direction. The people that whine like a 6 year old are the ones they will never please and should just ignore. Although I'm not sure FWP is willing to do the same as some of those 6yr olds might be in the legislature, LOL.

You also have a lot of good points .

 

[huntin24/7]

I think Think it’s got good points and bad

I don’t really see any bad points. If anything, it could provide even less opportunity given the state of herds in both species for the majority of the state. It’s a really nice compromise of opportunity for hunters, potentially spreading out pressure, and giving deer herds more of a fighting chance.

 

[8andcounting]

I don’t really see any bad points. If anything, it could provide even less opportunity given the state of herds in both species for the majority of the state. It’s a really nice compromise of opportunity for hunters, potentially spreading out pressure, and giving deer herds more of a fighting chance.

In your opinion. I think it’s gonna put more pressure on the mule deer just not in November

 

[huntin24/7]

In your opinion. I think it’s gonna put more pressure on the mule deer just not in November

There will be pressure. The only way to really minimize pressure on mule deer here would be to go LE everywhere. But we don’t want to do that yet. At least it would likely result in lower success rates since guys that don’t even know how to tie their own shoes can’t blast forky with its nose up a does ass from the road in mid November. Nothings perfect, but it’s a hell of a start to positive change.

 

[8andcounting]

The only way to really minimize pressure on mule deer here would be to go LE everywhere.

^^^^^ bingo . Rip the bandaid off

 

[Gerald Martin]

^^^^^ bingo . Rip the bandaid off

And ensure that nothing gets done at all.

 

[SAJ-99]

^^^^^ bingo . Rip the bandaid off

I think a lot of people would agree that this is the ultimate solution, but it isn't practical. This brings up the "Birth Right" and "Montana values" discussion. I also agree that the group probably moved rifle to Oct because pressure in Oct is a lot different than pressure in Nov, even if the number of hunters is the same.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think a lot of people would agree that this is the ultimate solution, but it isn't practical. This brings up the "Birth Right" and "Montana values" discussion. I also agree that the group probably moved rifle to Oct because pressure in Oct is a lot different than pressure in Nov, even if the number of hunters is the same.

One thing I am not sure everyone who says pressure is the same is understanding that hunters will be choosing both region and species for their deer tag.

Not everyone is going to choose to hunt 6 and 7 in October.

 

[8andcounting]

And ensure that nothing gets done at all.

Huh ? Le would do nothing ?

 

[8andcounting]

One thing I am not sure everyone who says pressure is the same is understanding that hunters will be choosing both region and species for their deer tag.

Not everyone is going to choose to hunt 6 and 7 in October.

That’s true not everyone will . But one draft and you won’t even entertain the possibility that maybe it’s not the solution ? It very well could be . And thanks for your time and work

 

[Gerald Martin]

Huh ? Le would do nothing ?

LE would do nothing because it wouldn’t make it past the process. The social aspect of change is just as much of the process as the biological.

 

[SAJ-99]

One thing I am not sure everyone who says pressure is the same is understanding that hunters will be choosing both region and species for their deer tag.

Not everyone is going to choose to hunt 6 and 7 in October.

Agree. I was looking at the harvest data on FWP and just cringe when I see hunting days by region. 2023 shows more hunter days in Region 1 than in Region 7. Maybe it is correct, but I venture to guess FWP really has no idea where people are hunting. I also suspect they are afraid of more accurate data. I'm not sure what assumptions can be made from any of it. I could probably equally argue that days is directionally correct because it is easier to kill a deer in 7 than in 1?