Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[antlerradar]

Well we can agree to disagree I guess then. All I know is a lot of landowners that lease out, do it in part to avoid the headache of dealing with hunters. Increasing that headache doesn't seem dubious or trivial to me,

The headache is the most painful when the mule deer are star eyed with love and standing next to the road begging to get shot by the unethical. Just about any warden will tell you that landowner/slob hunter issues jump as soon as the rut starts.

 

[Nick87]

The headache is the most painful when the mule deer are star eyed with love and standing next to the road begging to get shot by the unethical. Just about any warden will tell you that landowner/slob hunter issues jump as soon as the rut starts.

Makes total sense. Bucks being in places they usually aren't brings out snap decisions in folks that usually aren't the best.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I'd be really interested in knowing some of the data on how much of a real problem our current muzzleloader season really is. I understand the argument against shooting bulls on winter range, however this seems to be more of a perception than reality. I'm yet to meet an elk hunter that is sitting around doing nothing through archery and rifle just so they can go knock on doors and try to get permission in often sub-zero weather to hunt bulls on mostly private property, where the answer is almost certainly going to be "no."

Further, with shoulder seasons currently still in place, most people looking to fill a B tag are taking their rifle out for a cow. More than anything, I think most of our muzzleloader hunters are hunting whitetails with B tags.

I'm glad this proposal isn't really messing with the muzzy season (for now). And I agree that the commission should have the authority to set the muzzleloader season and that it should not have been done legislatively; but I also personally don't really want to see it any other time than where it is now, certainly not overlapping with other seasons or the elk rut like they do in CO. Again, I'd love to see some actual data on this. And I well could be wrong, but the arguments appear to be mostly reactionary and not true to what's happening on the ground.

The only thing our proposal is trying to do is bring the muzzleloader season back under FWP commission authority.

The FWP commission is the proper authority to oversee the rules of season structure, not the MT Legislature drafting seasons into law .

It’s more a matter of principle and good governance than anything else. That belief is also why were bringing forth this proposal and working it through FWP’s process to allow the commissioners to pass it rather than trying to find a Legislator to get the whole thing drafted into law.

If this proposal were to be implemented we might find out ten years down the road that certain parts aren’t producing the intended results. Having it under FWP Commission authority allows for greater flexibility to adapt and change when necessary.

 

[406bobcat]

Thank you, @Gerald Martin for posting this and for the work the whole group has done. Reading through comments, you guys rolled up your sleeves and dug into the 'big picture' on how to manage our resource while still providing opportunity. We'll never have a 'one-size fits-all' solution. But what you guys came up with is a huge step in the right direction. Montana is never quick to change anything - I'm a 5th generation Montanan, and I feel like in my lifetime, we are always slow to change things on the legislative/government side of things. But hopefully, by 2026, some, if not all, of these changes can start to be put into action. In reality, this is going to be a process, and not immediate. Some of the comments giving constructive feedback have been great. But, I just have a feeling that changes are going to occur overtime (multiple years).

I like information in lists, so here are some thoughts. If I was made 'ruler' for a day and was able to set the seasons for MT, I'd implement a lot of what you proposed. Here are some other ideas I'd try to get done:

1. I love starting seasons on calendar days, rather than weekends, as your proposal somewhat reflects. Just makes it simple.

2. No mule deer hunting in November - just seems like common sense. Imagine being a mule deer buck in Montana...you can't/won't breed all year long, except for 3 weeks. Then all the sudden, you're surrounded by women for those 3 weeks, and all the while, you can be hunted and shot. No wonder bucks are hard to find and buck-to-doe ratios are bad? Again, it's what your proposal shows. I drew a non-resident LE mule deer tag in WY a few years ago. I spotted 34 deer total, including 8 bucks, on the first evening, alone. The season there goes for 2 weeks, 9/15 to 9/30. The quality was 100x what Montana has. Not saying MT will ever be what WY is for mule deer. But, making some changes can't hurt the mule deer resource. That area in WY is also a general tag for residents. And elk season was archery only during the time of my deer hunt. There were elk throughout, even with rifle deer hunters around. Elk didn't run off onto private. That's just what my experience was.

3. Give the animals a break on public land during the fall. We have the most generous seasons in the West. And our hunting has gone downhill (overpressure, populations on public, etc.). Let's pull the reigns back - I like the idea of a substantial break between archery elk and rifle elk. If we want more opportunity on public, we have to reduce the pressure. It's either have a break, or reduce the overall season lengths.

4. Eliminating mule deer doe harvest completely, state-wide. Antlered mule deer harvest, only. Unless a depredation hunt is granted for private land.

5. Increase resident fees, and increase NR fees.

6. Reduce hunting season lengths/dates for NR's. That one would be tough to fight. As a resident, that is a whole-heartedly selfish 'want', honestly.

Can't say it enough, though - thank you for starting a much-needed discussion with actual changes. I will gladly offer my time and my resources to help in any way I can.

 

[antlerradar]

I'd be really interested in knowing some of the data on how much of a real problem our current muzzleloader season really is. I understand the argument against shooting bulls on winter range, however this seems to be more of a perception than reality. I'm yet to meet an elk hunter that is sitting around doing nothing through archery and rifle just so they can go knock on doors and try to get permission in often sub-zero weather to hunt bulls on mostly private property, where the answer is almost certainly going to be "no."

Since muzzleloader season started we have had two hunters with 799 tags that passed on rifle season an only hunted muzzleloader. Neather filled there tags and they almost certanly would have during rifle season.

 

[cgasner1]

Since muzzleloader season started we have had two hunters with 799 tags that passed on rifle season an only hunted muzzleloader. Neather filled there tags and they almost certanly would have during rifle season.

I’d kill to have a 799 muzzy tag

 

[Eric Albus]

Then eventually it will be LE permits, pick your weapon, pick your district, pick your week, pay the wealthy out-of-state landowner for access to public wildlife, and mule deer Back to the Brink of extinction. Sadly our great grandchildren will have no concept of the great hunting opportunity we have been blessed to experience in Montana.

Yes, inevitably and eventually we wind up at
LE permits.
Perhaps by limiting technology we can stave off permits inevitably. Limit high power rifles to on week(or weekend). Have a primitive muzzleloader season for 4 weeks and archery primitive season for 4 weeks, with one week compound bows.

 

[Elktrack]

Yes, inevitably and eventually we wind up at
LE permits.
Perhaps by limiting technology we can stave off permits inevitably. Limit high power rifles to on week(or weekend). Have a primitive muzzleloader season for 4 weeks and archery primitive season for 4 weeks, with one week compound bows.

That’s crazy talk!

 

[Eric Albus]

Inevabilty , just re read the post

 

[Elky Welky]

The FWP commission is the proper authority to oversee the rules of season structure, not the MT Legislature drafting seasons into law .

Yup, which is why I said I agreed with that change (and ultimately advocated against the bill when it passed a few years back), even though I personally think the season is right where it should be and the concerns with winter range hunting are overblown. Heck, to @antlerradar's comment, it would seem the muzzy season has even saved a few bulls from getting killed.

 

[Elktrack]

This isn’t a technology problem. There’s too many damn people in regions 6 and 7 and a few other popular units. It’s not difficult to limit the number of folks in regions. WY does it pretty damn well with NR elk tags. I’m sure Montana could implement similar guidelines.
All this talk of completely reinventing the wheel with these seasons is not going to garner support.

The methods and techniques to do this are already being used by FWP in other regions. Having the entire Eastern 1/3 of the state as a general tag free for all has to change.

Again, take region 2 for example. There’s units that are completely general tag units and units that are LE for mule deer. Different dates and rules for different units within the region.

Take region 6 and 7 and do the same thing. Yeah sure, the general units are not going to have the trophy potential and age class but the cold hard facts are most don’t care (including FWP). The LE units could be managed for older age class. The simpler the solution the easier it will be to get support from FWP.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This isn’t a technology problem. There’s too many damn people in regions 6 and 7 and a few other popular units. It’s not difficult to limit the number of folks in regions. WY does it pretty damn well with NR elk tags. I’m sure Montana could implement similar guidelines.
All this talk of completely reinventing the wheel with these seasons is not going to garner support.

The methods and techniques to do this are already being used by FWP in other regions. Having the entire Eastern 1/3 of the state as a general tag free for all has to change.

Again, take region 2 for example. There’s units that are completely general tag units and units that are LE for mule deer. Different dates and rules for different units within the region.

Take region 6 and 7 and do the same thing. Yeah sure, the general units are not going to have the trophy potential and age class but the cold hard facts are most don’t care (including FWP). The LE units could be managed for older age class. The simpler the solution the easier it will be to get support from FWP.

If you want to petition FWP to make large portions of region 6&7 LE, knock yourself out. That would certainly work to better the age structure and buck/doe ratios in the area.

That wouldn’t work to preserve yearly hunting opportunity for folks and would be extremely hard to get FWP to implement in my opinion.

Alternate proposals and strategies to present to FWP are just as easy for anyone else to present as they are for our group.

 

[The Hedgehog]

It’s not difficult to limit the number of folks in regions. WY does it pretty damn well

I will say agree with this snippet of your post. Look into it a bit more

Long overdue changes needed.

 

[Mtn-time]

Why are MOGA affiliates so involved in this. I would think the majority of those properties outfitted are managed for both quantity and quality based on the clients expectations. Is this really about Mule Deer or separating seasons to better accomodate existing and new clients. I fail to see why they have a dog in the fight about DIY mule deer hunters when they are doing their own housekeeping. I dont have an answer for the decline in mule deer other than we have arrived at a threshold of harvest and carrying capacity, and folks continue it just blast em. The managed special permit districts are not exactly producing numbers of stellar bucks either. So I think this shifting season dates and blah blah is a business model desire.

Let FWP do their job, although not perfect by no means they do have the greater good in mind and are wary to schemes. Those folks work in wildlife everyday, not for 90 days every two years. We have a large staff with boots on the ground being undermined by special interests and the public to some degree. Maybe if FWP was able to spend more time on game management and less of their time with self proclaimed well meaning "snivelers".

I think of anything until proposal to clearly defines the causes and problem(s), and the solutions specify logical and/or predictable outcomes to those problem statements. IT should taken with a grain of salt at best. How many mule deer bucks does it take to support a family of four. How many acres does it take to support that many bucks. Just invoke a 2-point rule in. "2-points only" for harvest unless you have a special permit statewide. Problem solved, as folks will quit shooting mule deer as the numbers go up then so shall the permits.

 

[EYJONAS!]

I’d kill to have a 799 muzzy tag

Id kill just to get a damn archery tag

 

[cgasner1]

Id kill just to get a damn archery tag

No elk down there that’s why those guys are the tag

 

[TooLucky406]

Unless I missed something this is likely unpopular opinion then most have stated here but not lots to be desired from the proposal other then real efforts put forth by volunteers. So thank you to those on the committee.

1) I know mandatory reporting was listed but putting it last in legislative priorities (and I know not the intent but perception is everything) pretty much say this is not important and to continue our current poor survey phone calls. Put it first please!

2) To protect mule deer now we sacrifice our WT deer and elk season, specifically archery elk? We're not Utah, ain't no one killing elk in 90-100F!

3) No mention on specific on habitat restoration and funding. Montanans will not be on board if the State are not putting in govt funding while suggesting increase resident licensing.

3) Region selection and even date selection has no real bearing on crowding. If you're wanting to kill a mule deer you will go regardless. The idea that this will deterred western MT guy from going out east is wishful thinking. Now we're all just going to be there together in 30 days.

4) No address on nonresident crowding? This is taboo but the struggle is real! I may be way off but nonresident aren't coming to MT to hunt whitetails. All eastern regions will remain crowded. I rather have a capped then limit date.

Again not here to debate all the work folks have put in but if we are not honest to each other no real solution will be achieved.

 

[DFS]

2) To protect mule deer now we sacrifice our WT deer and elk season, specifically archery elk? We're not Utah, ain't no one killing elk in 90-100F!

I killed an elk when it was 96 degrees last year. I think I’ll have some elk steaks tonight.

 

[Hunt West]

I read this argument being thrown out today - (paraphrasing)

What does not hunting buck mule deer in November do to improve overall populations? It will/should improve the age structure but will not have a significant impact on overall numbers until the bucks start birthing fawns.

 

[raghornkiller]

I would hate to lose October archery elk hunting.I'm not sure how removing it helps anything or why mule deer season couldn't start Oct 1 anyway.