Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[daltrix99]

I think this is all great. The only thing I could see backfiring is the fact that the only thing to hunt in October is mule deer. All that idle time and itching to get out before elk opens.

Do you think the pressure will increase on mule deer? It seems like it would limit the opportunity mule deer/elk hunter harvest by those who see a deer while elk hunting though.

If I lived there I would spend way more time hunting deer than I would have normally.

No silver bullets, and this is a great proposal. I hope it passes.

This is (kind of) how Idaho does it, with regional variation. But for example where I hunt over there, the general deer rifle season is only two weeks in October, no elk hunting until November on an LE tag.

There are a lot of mule deer where we hunt but they are REALLY hard to find in mid October. We like it because the pressure is low, and the reward is high.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I would hate to lose October archery elk hunting.I'm not sure how removing it helps anything or why mule deer season couldn't start Oct 1 anyway.

From a biological perspective you’re probably right. From a hunter safety standpoint of mixing archers and rifle hunters it could be problematic.

There’s also the enforcement issue of the inevitable folks who would be archery hunting elk and carrying a rifle on their back for a mule deer that couldn’t resist extending their range a bit when that bugling bull won’t close within bow range..

 

[8andcounting]

From a biological perspective you’re probably right. From a hunter safety standpoint of mixing archers and rifle hunters it could be problematic.

huh ? You want to shorten the season and have it be the month of October when it’s the only season open and you’re worried about safety because archery could still be going on ?

 

[Gerald Martin]

huh ? You want to shorten the season and have it be the month of October when it’s the only season open and you’re worried about safety because archery could still be going on ?

No, I was responding to @raghornkiller post. I was reading it that he would want archery elk to stay open until Oct. 15 and rifle mule deer would start on Oct. 1 and run concurrently. Maybe I misunderstood his post?

 

[EYJONAS!]

No, I was responding to @raghornkiller post. I was reading it that he would want archery elk to stay open until Oct. 15 and rifle mule deer would start on Oct. 1 and run concurrently. Maybe I misunderstood his post?

I agree, that would be an issue and that's how I understood it as well.

Maybe you have already stated this but what kind of feedback does the board of outfitters or outfitters in general have towards something like these proposals? I'm not sifting through 24 pages to try and find it

 

[Hunting Wife]

Getting something concrete to start the discussion is one of the hardest parts of the process IMO, so many thanks to the group for doing the hard work. I am optimistic about much of this proposal.
I’m hopeful that some of these changes will reduce the crowding. That, and the accompanying hunting pressure on mule deer the last couple of years is shocking.

One thought that comes to mind though is that I hope we don’t turn whitetails into sacrificial lambs in all this. Some of you remember this buck and the story I posted



That was 10 years ago this fall. It was 100% whitetails in there, and they were thick.

The last two years, I’ve been back to hunt this area again. Imagine my surprise that in 2 seasons, I have yet to see a whitetail. Some mule deer, but zero whitetails. Same in several other haunts in a couple different Region 6 “whitetail spots” I haven’t hunted in a while. I hope we don’t lose sight of the fact that, in the face of the ever-increasing crowds and pressures, our supply of whitetails is not inexhaustible either. Shifting pressure from one species to another isn’t going to be sustainable long term. There are going to have to be caps on opportunity at some point.

For me personally, I would be all in on pick a region, pick a species, pick a weapon, or some combination. I am way less in favor of LE everywhere.

 

[Carnage2011]

I read this argument being thrown out today - (paraphrasing)

What does not hunting buck mule deer in November do to improve overall populations? It will/should improve the age structure but will not have a significant impact on overall numbers until the bucks start birthing fawns.

It won’t have any effect on overall populations. All the Does are being covered already. It just improves age class of bucks…maybe/hopefully.

 

[8andcounting]

No, I was responding to @raghornkiller post. I was reading it that he would want archery elk to stay open until Oct. 15 and rifle mule deer would start on Oct. 1 and run concurrently. Maybe I misunderstood his post?

Yup my bad

 

[8andcounting]

There are going to have to be caps on opportunity at some point.

this ^^^^

 

[Eric Albus]

Getting something concrete to start the discussion is one of the hardest parts of the process IMO, so many thanks to the group for doing the hard work. I am optimistic about much of this proposal.
I’m hopeful that some of these changes will reduce the crowding. That, and the accompanying hunting pressure on mule deer the last couple of years is shocking.

One thought that comes to mind though is that I hope we don’t turn whitetails into sacrificial lambs in all this. Some of you remember this buck and the story I posted

View attachment 324705

That was 10 years ago this fall. It was 100% whitetails in there, and they were thick.

The last two years, I’ve been back to hunt this area again. Imagine my surprise that in 2 seasons, I have yet to see a whitetail. Some mule deer, but zero whitetails. Same in several other haunts in a couple different Region 6 “whitetail spots” I haven’t hunted in a while. I hope we don’t lose sight of the fact that, in the face of the ever-increasing crowds and pressures, our supply of whitetails is not inexhaustible either. Shifting pressure from one species to another isn’t going to be sustainable long term. There are going to have to be caps on opportunity at some point.

For me personally, I would be all in on pick a region, pick a species, pick a weapon, or some combination. I am way less in favor of LE everywhere.

Eventually it’s LE permits statewide. We’re trying to come up with solutions to stave off the inevitable.

 

[Nameless Range]

Looks like it’s riling the right folks up I suppose.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Looks like it’s riling the right folks up I suppose.


View attachment 324714

Hi Jed!

PS. No Californians in our group either.
Unless @Eric Albus isn’t shooting straight with us.

 

[MTTW]

I read this argument being thrown out today - (paraphrasing)

What does not hunting buck mule deer in November do to improve overall populations? It will/should improve the age structure but will not have a significant impact on overall numbers until the bucks start birthing fawns.

If you have a unit that has 200 bucks killed in it per year and you move the season to Oct. and hunt them before they are concentrated on winter range you might only kill 100 bucks.

In every unit that I have hunted there are predators eating deer. Many times, they are eating newborn deer. With the Oct. season example there are 100 more adult deer on the land after season. Presumably these predators will eat some bucks that now exist rather than does. This leaves more adult does on the land. In theory they would reproduce, and you would have more deer in the unit the next year without bucks ever birthing a fawn.

 

[Nick87]

Hi Jed!

PS. No Californians in our group either. View attachment 324715

Yikes.

 

[Hunt West]

If you have a unit that has 200 bucks killed in it per year and you move the season to Oct. and hunt them before they are concentrated on winter range you might only kill 100 bucks.

In every unit that I have hunted there are predators eating deer. Many times, they are eating newborn deer. With the Oct. season example there are 100 more adult deer on the land after season. Presumably these predators will eat some bucks that now exist rather than does. This leaves more adult does on the land. In theory they would reproduce, and you would have more deer in the unit the next year without bucks ever birthing a fawn.

I seriously doubt you are gonna cut success rates in half by moving the season to October.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Personally, I feel like FWP needs to be willing to accept some reduction in funding from the resale of the returned deer/elk combo tags since they created a product that didn’t exist when the NR caps were implemented

Is FWP really making that much off reissue tags? The person who turns it in gets a partial refund, right? Does reissue tinker w/ the combo caps? If so, how? Maybe I’m asking the wrong questions… I’m just trying to understand what the issue is here.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Is FWP really making that much off reissue tags? The person who turns it in gets a partial refund, right? Does reissue tinker w/ the combo caps? If so, how? Maybe I’m asking the wrong questions… I’m just trying to understand what the issue is here.

@Ben Lamb might be better able to explain this with more accuracy than myself but here’s how I understand it.

There are 17,000 NR elk/deer combo tags and 6,600 NR deer only tags available in the original drawing. ( Plus the others like “Come Home to Hunt, Montana Native, and NR Youth)

Montana allows NR’s who draw the general combo tags to return the general tag for an 80% refund if they apply for a LE permit area and are unsuccessful in drawing the permit.

With the elk/deer combo tags that are returned they then separate them out into elk only and deer only tags and resale them to folks on the alternate lists separately.

It isn’t an addition of tags, technically. But it is an addition of NR hunters since the returned tags are now in the hands of two NR hunters rather than one. It contributes to increased NR presence in the field.

 

[golfer]

I agree, that would be an issue and that's how I understood it as well.

Maybe you have already stated this but what kind of feedback does the board of outfitters or outfitters in general have towards something like these proposals? I'm not sifting through 24 pages to try and find it

Idk. Rifle season is currently 5 weeks. Proposal on page one now says rifle hunting all of October and November. Seems like they could capitalize on the extra “opportunity”?

 

[Eric Albus]

This isn’t a technology problem. There’s too many damn people in regions 6 and 7 and a few other popular units. It’s not difficult to limit the number of folks in regions. WY does it pretty damn well with NR elk tags. I’m sure Montana could implement similar guidelines.
All this talk of completely reinventing the wheel with these seasons is not going to garner support.

The methods and techniques to do this are already being used by FWP in other regions. Having the entire Eastern 1/3 of the state as a general tag free for all has to change.

Again, take region 2 for example. There’s units that are completely general tag units and units that are LE for mule deer. Different dates and rules for different units within the region.

Take region 6 and 7 and do the same thing. Yeah sure, the general units are not going to have the trophy potential and age class but the cold hard facts are most don’t care (including FWP). The LE units could be managed for older age class. The simpler the solution the easier it will be to get support from FWP.

There is a technology problem too. When ppl reduce hunting to a range finder and a 1000-1200 yard dial it in magnum rifle scoped that’ll hit a 10 inch plate, sad.
It has reduced hunting to “target practice”. Shoot a steel plate, not an elk or mule deer, better yet a coyote,

 

[Pucky Freak]

Overall, I really appreciate all the effort the committee put towards the proposal. It looks fantastic.

I hope the optimism about inertia turns out to be correct. The current political environment appears to be charging headlong in the opposite direction: heritage season, crossbows knocking on the door, extra PP for NR outfitted clients, and the oodles of wild bills pushed in the last MT legislative session to benefit everyone but the resident public land hunter. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe finally curtailing MD doe harvest on public is the glimmer of hope that some positive change for the herds and the majority of hunters is afoot.

If this all were to be implemented, there would be some unexpected consequences that come out of it. It would be great if the inertia continued, and you all could press forward to make additional positive adjustments as needed.

Specifically, the writing is on the wall for NR MD hunters in 6/7. It’s very tempting to address that now rather than know it just has to be addressed again later in the very near future. But every extra thing added to the proposal just decreases its chances of going anywhere. I think the “pick a deer region” is an excellent step in the right direction - great place to start.