Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[Gerald Martin]

Just curious why would you as a resident want to decrease the NR? family from out of town?

I think he means decrease numbers of NR not price of the NR tag

 

[JMD]

Good afternoon folks. We all know that the current status of mule deer in Montana is a topic of great interest and debate. Many folks who have hunted mule deer for decades have expressed frustration and alarm over the downward trend in both quantity of mule deer and quality of hunting experience under the status quo of mule deer management.

Back in February, a group of us met to discuss the future of mule deer after spending years complaining about it online. The group was comprised of volunteers from each region of Montana and included landowners, outfitters, public land hunters and folks with a lot of experience interacting with FWP and the Montana Legislature on wildlife management issues.

During that day long meeting, the group of 9 members of Hunt Talk discussed a variety of concerns ranging from season structure to predation to habitat issues.

There was unanimous consensus among the group that the health of mule deer and other wildlife resources must be priority in making management decisions. It was also unanimously agreed upon that our current management policies are no longer sustainable without causing degradation to mule deer.

Out of that conversation it was agreed upon that the lowest hanging fruit, and perhaps one of the most important to address was the way that Montana has structured it's general hunting seasons over the last 40 years.


Montana is an opportunity state, which is both a blessing and a curse. The North American Model calls for the democratization and egalitarian allocation of the wildlife resource and that is something that this group wanted to maintain. When we looked at overall herd numbers (we're at the bottom end of the 10 year cycle), loss of habitat and the large influx of both resident and non-resident hunters, it became clear that sustaining a liberal harvest strategy on mule deer was going to be problematic.

Also, the group recognized that while the growth of doe licenses has been severely curbed both through legislation (SB 281) and the Commission decisions that eliminated doe hunting in Regions 6 & 7, mule deer were still going to be at higher risk during the standard season structure. In order to bring back our mule deer herds, improve hunting strategies for elk to increase hunter efficacy and reduce overall the number of days it takes to harvest an animal, the group developed the following proposal.

Last week we released drafts of this proposal to various conservation organizations and to FWP for their consideration to begin gathering support for the proposed changes or for input on how to improve our proposals.

If you want more detail, read the attached PDF as these are just the bare-bones highlights.

The Big Change to Deer Hunting:

1.) Deer: Choose your region, choose your species: The idea is to spread around pressure and move the mule deer hunt out of the rut. Hunters must select a region and a species to hunt. This does not limit the hunter on OTC regional B licenses or unit specific B licenses. If you wish to hunt antlered mule deer in eastern Montana, who have to declare the region and the species. This limits your antlered hunting to that area, but you still may utilize a B license in the unit it is valid.

What doesn't change:

1.) Limited entry districts do not revert to the new general season structure, as they have limited pressure already, and can sustain longer general seasons.
2.) The backcountry hunts in the Scapegoat and Bob Marshall, Absaroka Wilderness, etc. stay the same.
3.) Two day youth hunt remains the same. Youth hunters during this two day season will not be limited to single region only and may hunt whitetail or mule deer in accordance with the regulations of the unit they are hunting.


Basic Season Structure:
August 25 - September 30th: Archery for whitetail, mule deer and elk

October 1 - October 31: Antlered Mule Deer. Doe harvest by permit only

October Cow Elk Season: Private land only, two weeks in length applied in the middle of mule deer season.

November 1-30: General Whitetail and Elk season. Liberal cow seasons on private land, permitted/licensed on public with very tight limitations to reduce hunter pressure.

December 7-16: Muzzleloader season

December 10-25: Additional Cow only season.

The cow seasons are meant to provide a meaningful alternative to shoulder seasons, which after a decade of use have both good and bad results. The idea on cow seasons is to focus pressure on areas that need it over a shorter period of time in order to “shock” elk back on to public land where tolerance is far higher and to assist biologists in bringing elk populations closer to objective in over objective units.


Montanans value the opportunity to hunt deer and elk at the same time. They value opportunity above antler size. We believe that this proposal will do several things to guarantee and improve opportunity for future generations by giving up just a tiny fraction of our opportunity today.

This proposal does not call for more limited entry areas, nor does it call for regional caps to limit hunter mobility. We have worked with outfitters, landowners and DIY public land hunters to pull this together to a place where we feel like it's ready for people to review and hopefully support.

I’d like to acknowledge the folks involved in bringing these proposals into what we are presenting here @bigsky2 (Jess Wagner), @cgasner1 (Chris Gasner), @Schaaf ( Justin Schaaf), @Gerald Martin,(Gerald Martin) @MTTW (Tim Willson) @Randy11 ( RandyHodges) @antlerradar (Art Hayes III), @Eric Albus , ( Eric Albus)and @Big Shooter (Rod Paschke) I also like to thank @Ben Lamb for helping facilitate the meeting and organizing our ideas into a coherent proposal.

Do you think having mule deer hunters on the mountain in October is not going to put elk off public land? That is if they were to go to a November general season?

 

[Nick87]

I think he means decrease numbers of NR not price of the NR tag

Thanks that makes sense. Read that wrong.

 

[mtmuley]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth to the conversation.

I'd really like to thank this group for getting together and moving the conversation along. Many of these proposals I can support. Some not so much.

This whole mule deer discussion is Deja vu for me.

A little history on the limited entry mule deer tags in the Bitterroot might shed some light and make some think, or not, about other management directions available.

The Bitterroot deer population counts back in the 80's were showing about a 4 to 7 bucks to does post season counts. The resource was in dire straits and needed attention quickly. The local Bio at the time wished to move the season structure to exactly the same openers that this group has picked out. He felt that having that shift would cure most of the biological woes and more bucks would live. He also loved to hunt early Oct mule deer and did so every year in Wyoming. Weird thing was he managed to kill some big bucks every year in that time frame.

Having grilled him and other management personal over results in other regions in the west that tried these movements in seasons, the consensus was basically nill change in mule deer shot but rather the time of year they got shot in. Lots of reasons for this that I won't go into completely but more hunters go out for deer whent he weather is nice, plus add in that's the only game going on and more people focused on mule deer vs Elk. In heavily hunted areas where the buck to doe ratio's won't recover there is only on recourse to consider and that's limited entry. You have to regulate how many deer are killed regardless or you're in deline. Eventually the 5 year averages get smaller and smaller.

We proposed the LE tags in the Root to bring the mule deer back, nothing more. The Bio that wanted the earlier start dates supported our wishes, and with that help we got the change.

It's comes down to what you're willing to sacrifice? Most Montana resident hunters will kill that forkie every year as it's their God given right to do so. We need to change our mindset in Montana that thinks this way. I've only shot 2 mule deer in 30 years.

On to the proposal which is very similar in structure to what was proposed here back in the 80's . You have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We have a pretty good archery season structure in place. You can get the season started by hunting antelope for a couple of weeks then a great archery season that goes to mid October. I would support and work for change for moving a mule deer season up a few weeks but only if that season stayed at 3 weeks for bucks. I would be willing to give up some of the archery maybe around the second weekend in Oct. There would be fluctuation with areas getting better and some worse off. Areas that got better would then get more pressure the next year. People figure out where the better areas are and find a way to get there. Good things won't last anywhere for long. Choosing your hunting district would help for sure. This has merit and might be a tool that helps deer live longer. I'm in the group that feels the earlier opener for mule deer might move more Elk to the private. Time will tell.

The part where we trade quality elk archery time at the expense of poor mule deer hunting time is a no go. For me and many others I'm not willing to support the full month of Oct lost to archery. Gaining 2 weeks earlier for deer isn't a trade I'm willing to make.

Some blame the Elk population competition as the partial reasons in mule deer decline. I'll point out as an example, that in HD 261 of the Root, our Elk populations are at the bottom of the range in the south portion of the split district and compared to back to the 80's are less in numbers. The mule deer populations are also less. The reduced Elk populations in that area haven't increased the mule deer numbers. We are also killing max on lions and have a tough time filling quotas. This district has wolves, bears and coyotes, but not sure their a big part of the problem.

I think Montana has been at a crossroads for awhile now, and the only way to get people to the table is the threat of lost opportunity. I hope there's some positive changes for mule deer management that will actually result in a healthy mule deer herd.

Even with the LE tags in the Bitterroot we are losing deer numbers. Predators are not the smoking gun here. Our club paid for some collars to be put on mule deer several times. Many of the collared deer just bedded down and died. Our bio raced to the sites and did test that never showed anything. There's a lot of moving parts going on with mule deer and I think we need to also study what's limiting their numbers in different regions to address management accordingly.

On another note, I'm not so sure the State of Montana want's more Mule Deer or any other wild ungulate. In the discussions going on with CWD you see that our department personal are willing to kill off the species to keep the disease at bay. That's a whole other discussion for another thread though so I'll leave that here.

Shoots, I agree with pretty much all of that except for the predator issue. We have a ton of lions here. mtmuley

 

[Hem]

Just curious why would you as a resident want to decrease the NR? family from out of town?

I think residents should have a more vested interest in our state. It's dirt cheap as it is.
I am not anti non resident. Just too many.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The revenue thing at FWP is disingenuous. FWP rakes in a ton of money on point sales as well as the sale of licenses.

FWP's budget is set by the Legislature. The pay plan is encompassed in HB 13, and includes other state employees in about every agency. HB 5 is the Long Range Planning Bill that funds habitat conservation funding and new purchases like aircraft, new buildings, etc. FWP is not in charge of their own budget. The Governor's office recommends a certain budget, but the appropriations process of the legislature is where this is all decided. Just because FWP has funding from a source, doesn't mean it gets spent in any fashion.

To find our more about FWP's budget you can view these:

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/aboutfwp/legislature/2023/budget-book-reduced-file-size--v18.pdf

https://leg.mt.gov/content/Publications/fiscal/2025-Biennium/Analyses-Reports/Quarterly-Reports/March24-Q2-FY24/Section-C/52010-FWP-QFR-March2024.pdf

 

[cgasner1]

I think the question should be why are people so hesitant to give it up when it isn’t sustainable? Troll over to Montanica if you want to see the outrage. They want antler restrictions and LE before giving up the rut hunt.

I bet they all want it to be le till it is and they don’t have a deer tag. It’s easy to say I want a le till you don’t have a tag

 

[FREAK]

The question has been asked "wont we just kill the deer in Oct. rather than Nov?

In many areas that we hunt Mule deer in MT we are hunting them on winter range. It is often the deer from hundreds of square miles concentrated in a much smaller area. I had hunted many years before I realized in some instances, I had been hunting winter range and didn't even know it.

An Oct. mule deer season will help reduce the chance of over harvesting Mule deer on winter range. This happens every few years in SW MT where I have hunted a lot. We go a few years with mild weather and start getting some deer back, and then get early harsh weather in Nov. and we kill almost every buck and often too many does from a specific area. Can you imagine if Wyoming let anyone in the state with a tag hunt the Red Desert, or other wintering area the month of November? You would have Montana's present mule deer management.

The deer are much harder to over harvest on years when they are not concentrated by weather and an earlier season will help greatly with that.
If we could recover some deer in the western part of the state it would help alleviate crowding and over harvest in the eastern part of the state. I know quite a few people who go east for deer out of necessity and not because it is where they would rather hunt.

I think it would also significantly reduce the amount of deer shot as consolation prizes while guys are elk hunting.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I bet they all want it to be le till it is and they don’t have a deer tag. It’s easy to say I want a le till you don’t have a tag

I can only imagine the explosion of opposition if we had suggested making all mule deer hunting LE with the amount of tags available determined as a percentage of the the observed bucks and does of an individual unit. That would get ugly really fast.

 

[Flatbrimmer]

For the folks that still want some form of mule deer rut opportunity, I’m just curious WHY?

I’ve told ya before i don’t hunt mule deer typically, have never shot one and have passed on many. The reason for the rut is to find the big ones when they’re being dumb, rather than them being in their sanctuaries far into the mountain. If anyone’s gonna find a mature deer, it’s likely gonna be during mating season.

Why do you think people like rattling bucks and grunt calls? Same reason as bugling elk? Same as clucks and purrs?
Why wouldn’t they want the same chance at talking to the animal?

 

[rogerthat]

I’ve told ya before i don’t hunt mule deer typically, have never shot one and have passed on many. The reason for the rut is to find the big ones when they’re being dumb, rather than them being in their sanctuaries far into the mountain. If anyone’s gonna find a mature deer, it’s likely gonna be during mating season.

What if I told you this October season was going to give you an actual chance at finding big hank vs just the perceived chance that the current season structure provides? You can’t harvest what doesn’t exist.

 

[DFS]

I’ve told ya before i don’t hunt mule deer typically, have never shot one and have passed on many. The reason for the rut is to find the big ones when they’re being dumb, rather than them being in their sanctuaries far into the mountain. If anyone’s gonna find a mature deer, it’s likely gonna be during mating season.

Why do you think people like rattling bucks and grunt calls? Same reason as bugling elk? Same as clucks and purrs?
Why wouldn’t they want the same chance at talking to the animal?

You are hunting for a unicorn with Montana season structure. With the proposed changes a unicorn could exist, not so much now.

 

[Nick87]

I’ve told ya before i don’t hunt mule deer typically, have never shot one and have passed on many. The reason for the rut is to find the big ones when they’re being dumb, rather than them being in their sanctuaries far into the mountain. If anyone’s gonna find a mature deer, it’s likely gonna be during mating season.

Why do you think people like rattling bucks and grunt calls? Same reason as bugling elk? Same as clucks and purrs?
Why wouldn’t they want the same chance at talking to the animal?

People turn up mature deer in Sept and October all the time in other states. Give it a few years in Montana with no rut hunting and you'll likely be able to do the same.

 

[bigsky2]

Wasn’t trying to lump them together other than in the sense they both carry significant influence in Helena. Having either the outfitter and/or landowner orgs publicly endorsing this would greatly increase its chances.

UPOM makes up a very small percentage of the landowners within the state. I know quite a few landowners that would love to see an end to the mule deer road hunting in November.

 

[brockel]

People turn up mature deer in Sept and October all the time in other states. Give it a few years in Montana with no rut hunting and you'll likely be able to do the same.

5 years

 

[Nick87]

5 years

Kinda what I meant by a few but yah.

 

[Gerald Martin]

People turn up mature deer in Sept and October all the time in other states. Give it a few years in Montana with no rut hunting and you'll likely be able to do the same.

“I’d rather shoot a rutting forky in November.”

 

[huntin24/7]

For the folks that still want some form of mule deer rut opportunity, I’m just curious WHY?

For the big proponents of unlimited mule deer rut hunting, I’d say they want to kill a mule deer buck and not have to work very hard to do it, but I doubt any would admit that.

I also love hunting rutting muleys but understand it’s not realistic for healthy populations unless very limited in most instances.

 

[shoots-straight]

Shoots, I agree with pretty much all of that except for the predator issue. We have a ton of lions here. mtmuley

We've upped the take to the point that the quota's are filling.

HD 240 female quota 9 harvest 6 male quota 9 male harvest 5
HD 250 female quota 9 harvest 8 male quota 13 harvest 2
HD 270 female quota 11 harvest 8 male quota 9 harvest 9

only 270 male quota was reached. This is with the new and improved let anyone with a tag take a lion. If you include 204 there was 45 cats taken by legal means. I don't believe 45 is sustainable. 30 to 35 is a close number. This was what we determined when I worked on the supposed Montana Lion Management plan that was tossed in the round file.

History will repeat itself again and the houndsmen will be screaming about not being able to find a cat track every day.

I feel predators have local impacts in places but not the smoking gun here. Some places have suppressed take on cats and they have higher densities.

Cats kill deer no doubt. Lots of other things do too. I'd like to see some more evidence on what's really taking place now.

 

[mtmuley]

Cats kill deer no doubt. Lots of other things do too. I'd like to see some more evidence on what's really taking place now.

I know cats are being killed. I still see them every year while hunting. Multiples some times. I know it is specific to our area but I question just how involved our biologist is. An LE unit was proposed to go general a few years ago. It stayed LE and this year the quota was reduced. I don't know what is taking place now with the mule deer decline. Wish I did. mtmuley