Montana FWP makes seismic shift in elk permits

[The Hedgehog]

Not talking about bull elk.
If the only way to get numbers in line is 3-4 weeks cow only on a quota, call in just like unlimited sheep area, so be it.

Okay, let me change my post:
Who’s livelyhoods are in conflict with elk numbers that you know personally. List names.

I've yet to meet a landowner in south eastern MT that thinks there are just too many elk, and that they are "conflicting with their livelihood". Nor any that don't have the means to change it with current seasons/permits/regulations we have in place.

This is 100% entirely about bull elk and you know that.

 

[mtmuley]

Eric, something like this would work if reducing elk was the real goal and adequate access was given by private landowners.
The problem is that the landowners who are harboring elk and causing the problems for their neighbors are the same ones using “overpopulation” as a lever to gain access to more bull tags.

One question. How does a landowner "harbor" elk? mtmuley

 

[Gerald Martin]

One question. How does a landowner "harbor" elk? mtmuley

By my definition. A landowner “harbors elk” when he doesn’t allow enough hunting access to move elk off his property at times or when other elk in the area move to his property for sanctuary from other areas that allow access .

 

[mtmuley]

Harboring gets easier as acreages increase I suppose. I understand the issue. The fix? Don't know if it can happen. mtmuley

 

[brockel]

Okay, let me change my post:
Who’s livelyhoods are in conflict with elk numbers that you know personally. List names.

I've yet to meet a landowner in south eastern MT that thinks there are just too many elk, and that they are "conflicting with their livelihood". Nor any that don't have the means to change it with current seasons/permits/regulations we have in place.

This is 100% entirely about bull elk and you know that.

There was one at the miles city meeting this fall. Wanted everyone to be able to use their general tag. Although it didn’t sound like he allowed people to hunt

 

[JLS]

There was one at the miles city meeting this fall. Wanted everyone to be able to use their general tag. Although it didn’t sound like he allowed people to hunt

 

[Gerald Martin]

Harboring gets easier as acreages increase I suppose. I understand the issue. The fix? Don't know if it can happen. mtmuley

It can’t happen unless the landowner allows adequate access to enough hunters to keep elk moving or to harvest enough animals to meet “objective” for the unit.

FWP is mandated by the legislature to accomplish something it doesn’t have the tools to accomplish.

The genesis of the fault is with the MT legislature and their legal requirement that elk need to be managed for “objective.”

That’s why I am increasingly favorable to the concept of suing FWP for refusing to go to antlerless only harvest on private lands in over objective units. They have the legal ability to fix this “problem” but refuse to implement the easiest management policy that they have at their disposal.

 

[tjones]

The genesis of the fault is with the MT legislature and their legal requirement that elk need to be managed for “objective.”

How many hunters in Beaverhead County voted for Debbie Barrett and are now wondering how this whole mess started?

 

[JLS]

How many hunters in Beaverhead County voted for Debbie Barrett and are now wondering how this whole mess started?

I bet she had a great rating from the NRA.

 

[mtmuley]

It can’t happen unless the landowner allows adequate access to enough hunters to keep elk moving or to harvest enough animals to meet “objective” for the unit.

FWP is mandated by the legislature to accomplish something it doesn’t have the tools to accomplish.

The genesis of the fault is with the MT legislature and their legal requirement that elk need to be managed for “objective.”

That’s why I am increasingly favorable to the concept of suing FWP for refusing to go to antlerless only harvest on private lands in over objective units. They have the legal ability to fix this “problem” but refuse to implement the easiest management policy that they have at their disposal.

Again. I understand. Hate to be glass half full, but I don't see how it will ever happen. Lawsuits against FWP for for management policies? mtmuley

 

[ccc23454]

The genesis of the fault is with the MT legislature and their legal requirement that elk need to be managed for “objective"

I love when managers use the word OBJECTIVE, can be used to mean more than one thing and can be changed often by a single event or person.

adjective
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts
noun
a thing aimed at or sought; a goal.

I think within FWP there are a bunch of different objectives...

 

[Gerald Martin]

I love when managers use the word OBJECTIVE, can be used to mean more than one thing and can be changed often by a single event or person.

adjective
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts
noun
a thing aimed at or sought; a goal.

I think within FWP there are a bunch of different objectives...

I think it’s past time that hunter’s’ objectives take higher priority when it come to management for the health of the resource rather than for eliminating the resource so landowners don’t have to deal with elk.

 

[mtmuley]

I think it’s past time that hunter’s’ objectives take higher priority when it come to management for the health of the resource rather than for eliminating the resource so landowners don’t have to deal with elk.

Do landowners want to harbor elk, or not deal with them? mtmuley

 

[tjones]

Again. I understand. Hate to be glass half full, but I don't see how it will ever happen. Lawsuits against FWP for for management policies? mtmuley

It would be easier if it was FWP policy. Debbie Barrett’s HB set in statute FWP to manage to objectives. State law.

 

[bigsky2]

Again. I understand. Hate to be glass half full, but I don't see how it will ever happen. Lawsuits against FWP for for management policies? mtmuley

Hank said we couldn't go to antlerless only because of the threat of lawsuits.

 

[Big Fin]

Hank said we couldn't go to antlerless only because of the threat of lawsuits.

He did. And they also think killing bull elk on private land is going to lower herd numbers. Points being, both are illogical, even if a Director claims them as logical.

The smoke screen is to make it seem like there are no other options and steam rolling public land hunters is the only remaining viable option. We all know that's BS. Question becomes, are we willing to call his bluff?

 

[Gerald Martin]

He did. And they also think killing bull elk on private land is going to lower herd numbers. Points being, both are illogical, even if a Director claims them as logical.

The smoke screen is to make it seem like there are no other options and steam rolling public land hunters is the only remaining viable option. We all know that's BS. Question becomes, are we willing to call his bluff?

That saying of **** or get off the pot is applicable to FWP(leadership) in my opinion.

I have become very impatient with them using objective numbers as an argument to eliminate limitations on bull harvest in permit areas. Hank is playing a shell game with Montana hunters and landowners who suffer financially from elk. (I have always accepted that there are some landowners actually suffering who allow access. Is that even a reality or are those folks just straw men concoctions of UPOM and MOGA?)

 

[SAJ-99]

That saying of **** or get off the pot is applicable to FWP(leadership) in my opinion.

I have become very impatient with them using objective numbers as an argument to eliminate limitations on bull harvest in permit areas. Hank is playing a shell game with Montana hunters and landowners suffer financially from elk. (I have always accepted that there are some landowners actually suffering who allow access. Is that even a reality or are those folks just straw men concoctions of UPOM and MOGA?)

https://billingsgazette.com/outdoor...cle_db384a5f-fb0b-5455-a529-e81062a3c6a1.html

This is a memorable Brett French article. The comments and views are fascinating. not sure it answers your question completely.

 

[Carnage2011]

He did. And they also think killing bull elk on private land is going to lower herd numbers. Points being, both are illogical, even if a Director claims them as logical.

The smoke screen is to make it seem like there are no other options and steam rolling public land hunters is the only remaining viable option. We all know that's BS. Question becomes, are we willing to call his bluff?

How do we go about calling his bluff? It feels like commenting to the commission is a waste of time and most of them already have their mind made up. So what is our next step?

 

[Jbaldwin40]

How do we go about calling his bluff? It feels like commenting to the commission is a waste of time and most of them already have their mind made up. So what is our next step?

Sounds like they are afraid of lawsuits