shoots-straight
Well-known member
Great conversations from some very knowledgeable people.
So I'll add my perceptions (real or otherwise).
Yes, in Western Montana (my main stomping grounds) Elk were fewer back in the 70's and 80's. The lands we hunted were mainly public as there were very few Elk on private other than some large ranches that were protected. People would congregate around those sanctuary area's and catch a few Elk moving over to public. Mostly we hunted the vast roadless, multiple use areas of the forest around here.
Day hunting was the norm for us as you could drive within an hour of home and be in great ELk hunting. Hell many hunters didn't even have 4 wheel drive then. So when snow depths got deep you have zero competition if you were lucky enough to own a good vehicle or hunted with someone that did.
By and large the best Elk hunting was in the Western 1/3 of the state with a good chance at mature bulls.
So lets fast forward to today and see what's changed.
First off, there are a bunch more hunters than then, we can all agree that's a reality. Non resident hunters were 11,500 in total numbers and purchased combo tags. I think I saw where there are around 78,000 NR hunters today. Many are specializing on certain things and don't have the combo tags anymore. To be fair that's total Big Game hunters.
There was great mule deer hunting in Western Montana, but the really sick deer hunting was in the East.
Same people that took the Elk survey would also tell you that Deer management is Ok and they like their opportunity although there's no question as to how far the deer hunting has slipped.
So back to what's changed for ELk hunting:
So through the 80's and 90's things still climbed as far as quality and numbers of Elk. If I remember right, we held bull to cow ratio numbers above 25/100 post seasons back then with about the same Elk herd we have today in a portion of the areas I hunted. Now we are at 15/100. Cow hunting had gotten regulated and controlled, and was raising the populations. With the new EMP coming out the "Managers" will maximize Bull Elk harvests and keep them from falling to 10/100. I'll just leave that there.
At that time there was a huge push by land agency's to get the remote lands roaded before they were included in the RARE II Wilderness lands designations. Those great multiple use areas I hunted ended up with roads through the heart of them. Big Bulls and roads just don't mix. One spot in particular was flown one year in winter and the bio counted a group of 70 bulls hanging together. All but 3 of them were 6 points or better. The area was a winter range for bulls but roadless and steep, but they could winter in their unmolested. The next year it was roaded and logged, (looked like a nuclear bomb went off. The next years flight count was 3 bulls total. Access and lack of cover made them easy targets.
During the 90's 3 things changed that have had a huge impact (IMO). The first was the 4 wheeler quad ATV showed up, another was the Grey Wolf, and the third thing, (biggest) was Elk were considered vermin. Many things have changed, but those 3 are what I considered the biggest.
So there was a push by the department to start killing elk and the words "Elk Objectives" started getting tossed around. Elk started congregating in places that were quit compared to public lands.
During the 2000's this push to kill Elk was quite effective on public land elk populations. Some of those areas haven't come back as of today for various reasons.
Massive forest fires covering a lot of acreage also added in to the mix. Grass was in great supplies, but we were still killing off Elk on public lands because of social concerns. Elk were just considered vermin by some and competing with the sacred cow. Much of the public forest regions in the Western 1/3 have been burnt, and successive fires needed to clean out the downfall are being suppressed because people complain about smoke. IMO we need the fires to continue especially in those areas. The second or third successive burn are more important for restoring the forest to what's natural. I'm not a expert by at all, just telling you what I see.
So Big Bulls are very vulnerable now compared to days gone by because the cover is gone. People can and do shoot 1000 yards at them and many are quite good at that long range stuff. More are going to that type of thing to compete. ATV trails have been built to address the recreational users that enjoy their side by sides, were none existed a decade ago.
In places like the Big Hole Valley, Elk numbers were pissing off the ranchers as they do compete for feed with cattle. The complaining was heard by the department and they liberalized the hunting there. Now there's a 1/3 the Elk there was and I hear from some of those landowners that (although they don't want Elk on their ranch lands) They think there's not enough bulls around anymore. So there's that. The petal is still to the metal, as far as management goes in that region and there's still a high amount of kill taking place on those bulls. By what I've seen the old bulls numbers are few and far between. With the new EMP's emphasis on maximizing bull elk harvests, I see no improvement for years to come. Geewhiz had better get ready for his honey hole being invaded, there will be few rocks that don't get overturned by hunters these days. All things change, trust me.
The forest has shrunk a bunch, overall we have less older class bulls, more hunters that are better equipped, and hunt hunt longer and harder. Many people subscribe to the DIY public lands backcountry remote hunting now and are getting farther in than ever before. You can watch video's on how to fast forward to be a great Elk hunter on Youtube.
I don't have answers, but this I know. The hunting in Montana is far worse today, than it was by a long stretch, back in the 70's and 80's even though we have more Elk living in the state.
There's great Elk and deer hunting still to be had, (small and disappearing) but my Grandchildren will never have even a small portion of what I have had.
Trust me on that.
So I'll add my perceptions (real or otherwise).
Yes, in Western Montana (my main stomping grounds) Elk were fewer back in the 70's and 80's. The lands we hunted were mainly public as there were very few Elk on private other than some large ranches that were protected. People would congregate around those sanctuary area's and catch a few Elk moving over to public. Mostly we hunted the vast roadless, multiple use areas of the forest around here.
Day hunting was the norm for us as you could drive within an hour of home and be in great ELk hunting. Hell many hunters didn't even have 4 wheel drive then. So when snow depths got deep you have zero competition if you were lucky enough to own a good vehicle or hunted with someone that did.
By and large the best Elk hunting was in the Western 1/3 of the state with a good chance at mature bulls.
So lets fast forward to today and see what's changed.
First off, there are a bunch more hunters than then, we can all agree that's a reality. Non resident hunters were 11,500 in total numbers and purchased combo tags. I think I saw where there are around 78,000 NR hunters today. Many are specializing on certain things and don't have the combo tags anymore. To be fair that's total Big Game hunters.
There was great mule deer hunting in Western Montana, but the really sick deer hunting was in the East.
Same people that took the Elk survey would also tell you that Deer management is Ok and they like their opportunity although there's no question as to how far the deer hunting has slipped.
So back to what's changed for ELk hunting:
So through the 80's and 90's things still climbed as far as quality and numbers of Elk. If I remember right, we held bull to cow ratio numbers above 25/100 post seasons back then with about the same Elk herd we have today in a portion of the areas I hunted. Now we are at 15/100. Cow hunting had gotten regulated and controlled, and was raising the populations. With the new EMP coming out the "Managers" will maximize Bull Elk harvests and keep them from falling to 10/100. I'll just leave that there.
At that time there was a huge push by land agency's to get the remote lands roaded before they were included in the RARE II Wilderness lands designations. Those great multiple use areas I hunted ended up with roads through the heart of them. Big Bulls and roads just don't mix. One spot in particular was flown one year in winter and the bio counted a group of 70 bulls hanging together. All but 3 of them were 6 points or better. The area was a winter range for bulls but roadless and steep, but they could winter in their unmolested. The next year it was roaded and logged, (looked like a nuclear bomb went off. The next years flight count was 3 bulls total. Access and lack of cover made them easy targets.
During the 90's 3 things changed that have had a huge impact (IMO). The first was the 4 wheeler quad ATV showed up, another was the Grey Wolf, and the third thing, (biggest) was Elk were considered vermin. Many things have changed, but those 3 are what I considered the biggest.
So there was a push by the department to start killing elk and the words "Elk Objectives" started getting tossed around. Elk started congregating in places that were quit compared to public lands.
During the 2000's this push to kill Elk was quite effective on public land elk populations. Some of those areas haven't come back as of today for various reasons.
Massive forest fires covering a lot of acreage also added in to the mix. Grass was in great supplies, but we were still killing off Elk on public lands because of social concerns. Elk were just considered vermin by some and competing with the sacred cow. Much of the public forest regions in the Western 1/3 have been burnt, and successive fires needed to clean out the downfall are being suppressed because people complain about smoke. IMO we need the fires to continue especially in those areas. The second or third successive burn are more important for restoring the forest to what's natural. I'm not a expert by at all, just telling you what I see.
So Big Bulls are very vulnerable now compared to days gone by because the cover is gone. People can and do shoot 1000 yards at them and many are quite good at that long range stuff. More are going to that type of thing to compete. ATV trails have been built to address the recreational users that enjoy their side by sides, were none existed a decade ago.
In places like the Big Hole Valley, Elk numbers were pissing off the ranchers as they do compete for feed with cattle. The complaining was heard by the department and they liberalized the hunting there. Now there's a 1/3 the Elk there was and I hear from some of those landowners that (although they don't want Elk on their ranch lands) They think there's not enough bulls around anymore. So there's that. The petal is still to the metal, as far as management goes in that region and there's still a high amount of kill taking place on those bulls. By what I've seen the old bulls numbers are few and far between. With the new EMP's emphasis on maximizing bull elk harvests, I see no improvement for years to come. Geewhiz had better get ready for his honey hole being invaded, there will be few rocks that don't get overturned by hunters these days. All things change, trust me.
The forest has shrunk a bunch, overall we have less older class bulls, more hunters that are better equipped, and hunt hunt longer and harder. Many people subscribe to the DIY public lands backcountry remote hunting now and are getting farther in than ever before. You can watch video's on how to fast forward to be a great Elk hunter on Youtube.
I don't have answers, but this I know. The hunting in Montana is far worse today, than it was by a long stretch, back in the 70's and 80's even though we have more Elk living in the state.
There's great Elk and deer hunting still to be had, (small and disappearing) but my Grandchildren will never have even a small portion of what I have had.
Trust me on that.
Last edited:
