Militia takes over wildlife refuge headquarters

[grizzly_]

Any conspiracy component avaliable?

What about enhanced charges for carrying a firearm while committing a crime?

There's gotta be something for unlawful use of a government vehicle.

 

[Big Fin]

Some one please post the facts of what crimes have been committed by the occupiers. What charges are being racked up? We know they have moved gov equipment, covered up a sign, camped illegally.

Any federal LEO types on the forum that could list the current possible charges and associated penalties?

I'm not a LEO person, but a quick email to someone who is, resulted in this reply. She made sure to state that this is a likely possibility to start with, but very likely bargained to a lower charge, depending upon what case a Federal prosecutor thinks they have. She said she has no idea the strength of the case. The bolded/underlined emphasis is mine.

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy -

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

 

[James Riley]

Any conspiracy component avaliable?

Conspiracy is indeed a possibility. It is the "prosecutor's darling" and a BS charge in many cases, used improperly, when everything else is weak. It's especially wrong when it becomes a "thought crime". But, on occasion, it is warranted. In some jurisdictions it can be used to assign a level of culpability to those in support of a crime who didn't actually personally participate in the crime. It's more viable when a crime other than conspiracy has actually been committed as part of the conspiracy, as here. But intent is always an issue when it comes to those who didn't actually participate in the primary crime. "Jeesh, I was just BSing, I didn't think these guys would actually do it . . ."

 

[JLS]

Randy,

I think either or both of the sedition and insurrection charges are not only solid, but don't think they will be plea bargained down. Not given the wide array of charges that these clowns will be facing.

grizzly,

The conspiracy charges will likely be applied to the sedition/insurrection component. Unlawful use of a government vehicle will likely fall in with computers and everything else. Probably the same USC violation, just a number of different counts.

Not sure on federal law, but in general for state law, carrying a firearm when you unlawfully enter a building changes the violation from a misdemeanor to a felony.

 

[JLS]

Conspiracy is indeed a possibility. It is the "prosecutor's darling" and a BS charge in many cases, used improperly, when everything else is weak. It's especially wrong when it becomes a "thought crime". But, on occasion, it is warranted. In some jurisdictions it can be used to assign a level of culpability to those in support of a crime who didn't actually personally participate in the crime. It's more viable when a crime other than conspiracy has actually been committed as part of the conspiracy, as here. But intent is always an issue when it comes to those who didn't actually participate in the primary crime. "Jeesh, I was just BSing, I didn't think these guys would actually do it . . ."

In order to prove a conspiracy there usually has to be an overt act towards the commission of the conspired crime.

In this case, if the Refuge Clowns are sending government information to folks in Nevada, I could easily see the recipients of said info being charged with conspiracy.

 

[Mike21]

The occupiers entered a building during time which it was closed to the public = breaking and entering.

The occupiers have been asked to leave and have refused = criminal trespass (which usually carries a higher penalty if it involves a building or a domicile).

The occupiers are carrying firearms inside of a federal building = self explanatory big no-no that is a felony.

The occupiers are using government computers and equipment, which is to be used for official business and only by authorized users. Depending on the files access and if they are disseminated this can easily be a felony.

Anything they are doing to alter the original state of the buildings could very easily be used to charge with defacing government property.

Not to mention, above all, they could very well face charges of rebellion and insurrection, or something similar. This alone could have them facing a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years.

Keep in mind that a judge will make the decision to allow sentences to be consecutive or concurrent. I highly doubt that in this case they would be granted concurrent sentences.

I see a wish list of possible crimes. Do you have the CFR numbers and the possible punishments?

Which of these crimes do you know for a fact occurred ? Who do you know close to this situation that has confirmed your above list?

In summary, Bundys want federal land back to the states, this puts our hunting tradition at risk. We as hunters disagree with the Bundys, we think they are wrong, short cited, etc.

Therefore now that something they believe in affects something we believe in, we can call them names, accuse them of crimes, call for them to be killed etc.

I get it, but as of right now no one has facts about what crimes, if any have actually been committed. And if those crimes are worth turning this circus into a spectacle.

 

[mtmiller]

I see a wish list of possible crimes. Do you have the CFR numbers and the possible punishments?

Which of these crimes do you know for a fact occurred ? Who do you know close to this situation that has confirmed your above list?

You asked a question and there were responses. Do you disagree that the first three events JLS mention have occurred?

 

[JLS]

I see a wish list of possible crimes. Do you have the CFR numbers and the possible punishments?

Which of these crimes do you know for a fact occurred ? Who do you know close to this situation that has confirmed your above list?

In summary, Bundys want federal land back to the states, this puts our hunting tradition at risk. We as hunters disagree with the Bundys, we think they are wrong, short cited, etc.

Therefore now that something they believe in affects something we believe in, we can call them names, accuse them of crimes, call for them to be killed etc.

I get it, but as of right now no one has facts about what crimes, if any have actually been committed. And if those crimes are worth turning this circus into a spectacle.

No CRF, I rarely deal with US Code. It's all available online, and give the maximum and minimum penalties.

I guess if you think it's a wish list that's fine. I don't have anyone close to the situation. I'm basing these on observed things that have gone on.

I can guarantee you crimes have been committed. To think that any haven't been is folly.

 

[Mike21]

I'm not a LEO person, but a quick email to someone who is, resulted in this reply. She made sure to state that this is a likely possibility to start with, but very likely bargained to a lower charge, depending upon what case a Federal prosecutor thinks they have. She said she has no idea the strength of the case. The bolded/underlined emphasis is mine.

Last time 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy was used on a case like this was 2010, on a Michigan militia. It was thrown out by a federal judge.

"The federal government has never won a sedition case against militia-types, white supremacists, or neo-Nazis. Since World War I, they have won numerous seditious conspiracy cases against Puerto Rican independentistas, communists and others on the left, but no one on the radical right has ever been convicted of plotting to overthrow by force of arms the government of the United States."
Leonard Zeskind. Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream. pp. 144−171. Publisher: Farrar, Straus and Giroux. 2009.

 

[utah400elk]

Most of the Violations are not CFR violations. They are viooations of united States Coed (USC) but it it too much like work to look these up. Most of the violations would be felony violations. They enetered a building with the intent to commit a crime (burglary in most states) and used a firearm during the commission of of a federal crime (felony) . Possessed a firearm in a federal building and there are a few more. If the prosecutor decided to charge them, they could be facing numerous charges.

 

[Mike21]

No CRF, I rarely deal with US Code. It's all available online, and give the maximum and minimum penalties.

I guess if you think it's a wish list that's fine. I don't have anyone close to the situation. I'm basing these on observed things that have gone on.

I can guarantee you crimes have been committed. To think that any haven't been is folly.

We know they have moved gov equipment, covered up a sign, camped illegally.... Those are crimes too.

It's looking like a lot of speculation and hope that these guys did something significant.

From a LE perspective there better be damn clear evidence and threat before you circle the wagons. Look like a real idiot if you get a bunch of guys killed over ???

 

[grizzly_]

Last time 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy was used on a case like this was 2010, on a Michigan militia. It was thrown out by a federal judge.

"The federal government has never won a sedition case against militia-types, white supremacists, or neo-Nazis. Since World War I, they have won numerous seditious conspiracy cases against Puerto Rican independentistas, communists and others on the left, but no one on the radical right has ever been convicted of plotting to overthrow by force of arms the government of the United States."
Leonard Zeskind. Blood and Politics: The History of the White Nationalist Movement from the Margins to the Mainstream. pp. 144−171. Publisher: Farrar, Straus and Giroux. 2009.

And "Misbehavior Before the Enemy" charges haven't been widely used since 1945, but that's what they charged Bowe Bergdahl with... so I guess I'm not seeing your point.

It's not easy to find comparable militia references when this one took over a Federal building on national TV. They could easily file charges not typically seen, as this is an unusual circumstance.

 

[JLS]

We know they have moved gov equipment, covered up a sign, camped illegally.... Those are crimes too.

It's looking like a lot of speculation and hope that these guys did something significant.

From a LE perspective there better be damn clear evidence and threat before you circle the wagons. Look like a real idiot if you get a bunch of guys killed over ???

I don't think a lot of it is speculation, I'll agree to disagree with you there.

Ammon Bundy has clearly stated his intent is to dismantle the Malheur Refuge. If he is taking overt actions to do so, then I think that would clearly fall under the USC Rebellion statute. However, I am also not a US Attorney. My expertise is state law, not federal law.

As far as how it is handled, you have to look at a number of factors.

1) What is the imminent threat to the safety of others?

2) What is the imminent threat to the security if the US?

3) What level of significance is the disruption in terms of vital functions of the government?

4) What is the threat of violence by the occupiers?

5) Based on the above, what is the acceptable risk to expose federal agents to?

I don't have official answers to all of the above, but it's not like these guys are sitting in a secret room in the Pentagon sending Instagram shots of US security documents to ISIS and Al Quaida.

I'm sure pre-emptive measures are being taken as we speak to address whatever security breaches may be taking place. Identity theft is likely at the top of the list.

There are a lot of unknowns that could greatly influence how this is handled. As aggravating as it is, a surround and wait them out approach is likely the best option.

 

[utah400elk]

Mike,

For a few violations its not simply speculation. There is plenty of evidence that, if presented to a federal Grand Jury, could result in lengthy prison sentences. The way the federal system (and most state systems) work is that thr prosecutor has the final say. I am not merely speculating and know that with the information, videos and interviews I have seen, they could be charged and convicted.

 

[Mike21]

They could easily file charges not typically seen.

Objection-Speculation-Sustained

Speculation: ideas or guesses about something that is not known

 

[James Riley]

To ask if they have been proven guilty after due process of law is a legit question. To suggest they haven't done anything worthy of charges is silly. To ask what those charges are is a legit question. To start nick-picking whether those charges are serious or not, or worth killing over is getting silly. If you commit a petty crime and the cops come to serve a warrant and you resist with lethal force, well, you just upped the anti and yes, you just made that petty crime worth getting killed over.

If you want Blue Book citations to authority then you need only wait. They are coming. I'd charge $250.00 an hour to go dig it all up.

Any way, I'm off to see a guy who had far greater problems: Revenant.

 

[JohnCushman]

To ask if they have been proven guilty after due process of law is a legit question. To suggest they haven't done anything worthy of charges is silly. To ask what those charges are is a legit question. To start nick-picking whether those charges are serious or not, or worth killing over is getting silly. If you commit a petty crime and the cops come to serve a warrant and you resist with lethal force, well, you just upped the anti and yes, you just made that petty crime worth getting killed over.

If you want Blue Book citations to authority then you need only wait. They are coming. I'd charge $250.00 an hour to go dig it all up.

Any way, I'm off to see a guy who had far greater problems: Revenant.

If that's all you charge for lawyer fees, then I wish you were around for my last divorce

 

[Hunting Wife]

The good thing about criminals that repeatedly post to you tube and entertain the media is they likely provide plenty of incriminating evidence. No need to speculate. ..I haven't and won't watch all the footage, but you can bet law enforcement and prosecutors will. Maybe that's why they are still letting folks come and go? The only logical reason I can think of.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

Back in the 70s I think AIM occupied the Wounded Knee for a long time. Maybe someone more informed than me can remember what charges were brought agains the conspirators during that. I think theyy also occupied the BIA building in D.C., which may be more of a precedent.

 

[slipinonem]

Don't forget AIM taking over Alcatraz either.