Militia takes over wildlife refuge headquarters

[JohnCushman]

The 'old' me would get pissed off and lash out at Mike21 and draw this out, throwing insults back and forth and trying to have the last word and one upping the other. But, I have a good wife, and good friends, have met some amazing guys off of here who I consider to be lifelong friends, and enjoy this site (that I know I've been close to losing more than a few times) and value the respect normally shows between each other, even with differing issues. So, Mike21 can say whatever he wishes about me, I'm sure I'm harder on myself than whatever insults he can throw at me. But, I do NOT like him using the word 'retarded'. As a big brother to a 'retarded' little sister, I've gotten in more than a few fist fights in school over her. So, Mike21, say what you wish about me, but I respectfully request that you refrain from using the word 'retard'. Also, I'd love to know what units you served with and when and where you were in Iraq. Maybe we can talk shop sometime. There's a lot of vets on here and sometimes discussions get brought up and we all start bullshitting about our service.

 

[Walkathon]

Last I read a few hours ago from a site that was giving a number of updates, the Sheriff had spoken to Bundy about leaving, Bundy declined; the other patriot group showed up and offered assistance, Bundy wanted them to leave, so they left the area and said they were setting up a perimeter; Bundy's group had commandeered the federal vehicles and were driving around in them and they made a sign, "Harney County Resource Center" that was hung over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge sign; no utilities had been cut at that time.

They are now using the federal vehicles to drive around? This is freaking ridiculous. I seriously can't believe there has been no action at all from the Federal Gov. This along with allowing them to enter and leave the refuge is a joke.

 

[Big Fin]

Well I guess I shouldn't be surprised by your threat of censorship for those that dont think the way you do. Pretty common on this forum from what I have observed.

.........

If interacting positively means not having a different view point then kick me off the forum Randy.

First, thanks for your service. It is greatly appreciated. Being a veteran is not a trump card that gives anyone a free pass to interact abrasively. But, I will admit to probably having a higher tolerance when a veteran steps outside the bounds of what is beneficial interaction. Odds are, you will be granted a higher level, due to my bias in favor of those with military service.

Second, there have only been four people ever banned by me from this site. If that is your version of a "threat of censorship," then so be it.

Third, it is never about different opinions. If that was the case, there would be one member on this forum. I've learned a ton from the different opinions presented that are different from my own. It is the delivery that often causes differing opinions to lessen the impact of that perspective.

Last, there are a lot of different points of view here. And when they are not presented in a manner that is what I feel is positive interaction, I point it out and tell folks to clean it up.

Carry on ......

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

Everyone needs to keep the focus on the Issue and ignore the occasional freak show. John

 

[katqanna]

Oregon standoff: What you need to know Sunday morning

In taking control of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters, militants occupying the site have also taken over the desks of the people who work at the site – their cubicles, their computers and, evidently, their personnel files. Oregon Public Broadcasting visited the compound Friday and reported that militants appeared to be using federal computers inside the compound, machines that can be accessed only with employees' ID badges. Lists of names and Social Security numbers were visible, alongside government ID cards.

Harney County Sheriff David Ward said at a community meeting Wednesday that his deputies and own family members had been followed home, photographed, and had personal property damaged in recent months.

In an interview Friday, Ward said he was concerned about the welfare of the employees who work at the refuge. However, he said he hasn’t confirmed militants have indeed accessed any personnel data.

“With what information we do have, we’re doing everything we can to make sure we keep our citizens and those employees safe,” Ward said.

There are programs on government computers that they will not only be able to tell if the computers were used, but can monitor them while they are using them. With hardcopy files in the office and people freely coming and going as they have, government property and information could be walking out the door or being transmitted with smart phones or tablets.

 

[James Riley]

Maybe it's time for all the gun control kumbayah types to step up. It would be interesting to see what would happen if several thousand unarmed people surrounded the place and slowly started marching in, hands up, singing some touchy-feely song. They could envelope these guys and immobilize them with hugs.

If they really wanted to make it a spectacle, they could do it naked, in snow shoes.

It would be a win-win: the Bundy types could claim the government was hiding behind women and children like cowards and the government could claim victory and the left could show us all how guns are not the answer. The wildlife and Indians, as usual, would sit on the sidelines with little WTF? speech balloons over their heads.

That would be one group the government probably would try to stop from going in.

 

[JohnCushman]

Oregon standoff: What you need to know Sunday morning





There are programs on government computers that they will not only be able to tell if the computers were used, but can monitor them while they are using them. With hardcopy files in the office and people freely coming and going as they have, government property and information could be walking out the door or being transmitted with smart phones or tablets.

Here's a question to pose to the masses.... Do you think the Feds are sitting back and just letting them rack up as many charges as possible before they go in and do something in order to have a stronger case if/when it would go to court? This just seems to be setting a bad presedent for other militant groups who are anti government who will think they can have a standoff and dare the feds to come get them and nothing will happen.

 

[Mike21]

My apologies to to John Cushman. My comments however retaliatory were not warranted.

 

[Walkathon]

Oregon standoff: What you need to know Sunday morning





There are programs on government computers that they will not only be able to tell if the computers were used, but can monitor them while they are using them. With hardcopy files in the office and people freely coming and going as they have, government property and information could be walking out the door or being transmitted with smart phones or tablets.

I'm in complete disbelief that it has gotten to this point.

 

[JohnCushman]

My apologies to to John Cushman. My comments however retaliatory were not warranted.

S'all good...you just don't know my sense of humor yet. Sit back, crack a beer, enjoy the place. There's a wealth of information on here and some awesome debates.

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

Way to stand up Mike21! John

 

[Walkathon]

Here's a question to pose to the masses.... Do you think the Feds are sitting back and just letting them rack up as many charges as possible before they go in and do something in order to have a stronger case if/when it would go to court? This just seems to be setting a bad presedent for other militant groups who are anti government who will think they can have a standoff and dare the feds to come get them and nothing will happen.

Maybe that is what they are doing- racking up the charges. The hole is so deep now that I don't see anything other than a bunch of time in federal prison for these guys.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Not sure if that is the case. IIRC, Bundy has very little deeded land.

That's what I get for typing while tired! I did not mean to imply that that is true for all places. What I was thinking is that there is a not insignificant number of acres in the west (somewhere in the millions if I remember right) that are landlocked by private. If the feds want to graze those acres, they are pretty much stuck with one option, even if some outside group was willing to pony up money. I was trying to think of places that sportsmen's groups would be interested in getting a lease on and a certain set of hills in central Montana came to mind. Poorly articulated on my part.

 

[Walkathon]

I have a National Wildlife Refuge about 5 miles from my house. I'm guessing if I decide to take over the administration building that I'll be wearing an orange jump suit within an hour.

 

[James Riley]

Here's a question to pose to the masses.... Do you think the Feds are sitting back and just letting them rack up as many charges as possible before they go in and do something in order to have a stronger case if/when it would go to court? This just seems to be setting a bad presedent for other militant groups who are anti government who will think they can have a standoff and dare the feds to come get them and nothing will happen.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why they are allowing more people and resources in. Other than that, I can understand their inaction. They are trying to avoid bloodshed and the appearance of militarized law enforcement. They'd rather deal with the negative precedence and possible encouragement to other nut cakes than to kill American Citizen nut cakes engaged in "civil" disobedience. Can't say as I blame them. I, for one, don't like the idea of an all-powerful government using military-style tactics against Americans. Some people on all sides think this is war. And for the purposes of rhetorical argument, that is fine. But it's not war. Not really. It's a crime. It's not terrorism. It's a crime. And we have time. And the wheels of justice turn exceedingly slow. I say the chance of these guys getting burned is much greater than the criminals behind the 2008 economic melt down.

Those who blame Obama for a lack of action in Oregon have to ask themselves what his opposite would do. My guess is a President with a cowboy hat and chain saw would be tacitly supporting these clowns.

The view from 10,000 feet is Mike Tyson letting a child punch him in the knee caps. But again, allowing more people and resources in is not smart, in my opinion.

 

[katqanna]

Here's a question to pose to the masses.... Do you think the Feds are sitting back and just letting them rack up as many charges as possible before they go in and do something in order to have a stronger case if/when it would go to court?

John, I have been wondering this, similar to poaching cases here in the state, where they monitor for a while, like over a couple years.

I remember when I first moved here, I was looking up some documentaries on Montana on Netflix. There was one about militia in Kalispell and Billings that the FBI had been watching for awhile before doing something about it. Maybe they are letting these guys dig a deeper grave.

 

[James Riley]

I guess one plausible reason they are allowing more people in: You get to find out who actually thinks like Bundy and is willing to back it up with action. Bring the cockroaches out where you can get them on your list.

It's a dangerous game though.

 

[Mike21]

Some one please post the facts of what crimes have been committed by the occupiers. What charges are being racked up? We know they have moved gov equipment, covered up a sign, camped illegally.

Any federal LEO types on the forum that could list the current possible charges and associated penalties?

 

[JLS]

The occupiers entered a building during time which it was closed to the public = breaking and entering.

The occupiers have been asked to leave and have refused = criminal trespass (which usually carries a higher penalty if it involves a building or a domicile).

The occupiers are carrying firearms inside of a federal building = self explanatory big no-no that is a felony.

The occupiers are using government computers and equipment, which is to be used for official business and only by authorized users. Depending on the files access and if they are disseminated this can easily be a felony.

Anything they are doing to alter the original state of the buildings could very easily be used to charge with defacing government property.

Not to mention, above all, they could very well face charges of rebellion and insurrection, or something similar. This alone could have them facing a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years.

Keep in mind that a judge will make the decision to allow sentences to be consecutive or concurrent. I highly doubt that in this case they would be granted concurrent sentences.

 

[James Riley]

I think they might be interfering with law enforcement in addition to regular federal employees trying to do their job.

I'm not a big fan of the gun thing, since I think I should be able to carry (not brandish) in the local USFS/BLM/USPS when I go in to do business. But it is what it is so I don't. I hate the idea that federal employees are somehow entitled to special treatment. It smacks of Congress.