Losing 87 miles of refuge

[corndog1]

Montana FWP is dumber than I thought and that bar was low

 

[EYJONAS!]

Wouldn't expect anything less. I've hunted that area my entire life. They've been trying to get that going for a few years.

 

[EYJONAS!]

The unspoken rule in waterfowl is never hunt the roost. Whatever they wanna do I guess. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks anyways.

 

[Bryerific]

MORE HUNTER ACCESS for kicking birds off the roost…

 

[corndog1]

I guess they don't know the importance of refuge for birds. Might as well open the afterbay at Fort Smith also. The Yellowstone is a nasty mofo that time of year and if this goes through there will be lost dogs to shelf ice for sure and hopefully not any hunters.

 

[SAJ-99]

Is the argument the Government needs to protect people from themselves?

"Hunter surveys and public meetings indicated support for opening this stretch of river to waterfowl hunting during the season."

 

[corndog1]

Is the argument the Government needs to protect people from themselves?

"Hunter surveys and public meetings indicated support for opening this stretch of river to waterfowl hunting during the season."

No the government doesn't need to protect us. The survey doesn't make the hunters right

 

[Elky Welky]

Is the argument the Government needs to protect people from themselves?

"Hunter surveys and public meetings indicated support for opening this stretch of river to waterfowl hunting during the season."

I would like to learn more about the issues with this. I was at the meeting in Billings last year when FWP proposed this, and the room was very receptive to it. I anticipate, like me, the room was mostly big game hunters, so perhaps not as informed on waterfowl etiquette. There was some discussion about how the lower Bighorn River gets pounded because this area has very little publicly huntable areas, so the thought was that this would actually better distribute the hunters and reduce pressure.

@corndog1 and @EYJONAS! can you elaborate? How much of this corridor is roosting area? Do you anticipate many hunters storming the river, or will they continue to hunt the places they have already been hunting? Where would you expect birds to go otherwise? Genuinely interested in learning the ins and outs on this one. Thanks!

 

[SAJ-99]

No the government doesn't need to protect us. The survey doesn't make the hunters right

I think in this case it sort of does. This isn't the same as mule deer survey. There was no biological reason for the closure. I agree that hunters may not be making the decision that is in their best interest, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't get what they want. Curse of democracy and all.

 

[Nick87]

Why would anyone want to open that up?

 

[SAJ-99]

There was some discussion about how the lower Bighorn River gets pounded because this area has very little publicly huntable areas, so the thought was that this would actually better distribute the hunters and reduce pressure.

Absolutely it will reduce pressure. That is why hunters want to do it. When you pressure the birds, they move on. This will be great for a couple of years at best and then the birds will adapt. I had suggested years ago to the bio that they should close it as a refuge on Dec 1 rather than the whole season. This would allow hunters to distribute to the backwaters when the first wave of ducks comes through and then allow geese to use it as a refuge when it freezes. This would also help those landowners that lease hunting for geese in fields surrounding the river. Obviously, proposal with nuance is not a strength of FWP.

 

[corndog1]

Having a safe spot for birds to rest,water,and roost is not biology I guess. I'm not going to say anymore but if you know you know. Wait I will say one more thing . If ya can't shoot waterfowl over there the way it is now then you suck at the duck

 

[SAJ-99]

Why would anyone want to open that up?

Because it is where the vast majority of waterfowl sit and it is almost 100 miles of public opportunity. This all ties into stream access laws. Land owners might want it closed to enhance the value of the lease. Hunters without the money to pay for a lease want it open. There are trade offs with everything.

 

[Nick87]

Because it is where the vast majority of waterfowl sit and it is almost 100 miles of public opportunity. This all ties into stream access laws. Land owners might want it closed to enhance the value of the lease. Hunters without the money to pay for a lease want it open. There are trade offs with everything.

Do the majority of birds roost there?

 

[corndog1]

Because it is where the vast majority of waterfowl sit and it is almost 100 miles of public opportunity. This all ties into stream access laws. Land owners might want it closed to enhance the value of the lease. Hunters without the money to pay for a lease want it open. There are trade offs with everything.

I don't have a lease. The birds are there because it's a REFUGE jeeezus

 

[EYJONAS!]

I would like to learn more about the issues with this. I was at the meeting in Billings last year when FWP proposed this, and the room was very receptive to it. I anticipate, like me, the room was mostly big game hunters, so perhaps not as informed on waterfowl etiquette. There was some discussion about how the lower Bighorn River gets pounded because this area has very little publicly huntable areas, so the thought was that this would actually better distribute the hunters and reduce pressure.

@corndog1 and @EYJONAS! can you elaborate? How much of this corridor is roosting area? Do you anticipate many hunters storming the river, or will they continue to hunt the places they have already been hunting? Where would you expect birds to go otherwise? Genuinely interested in learning the ins and outs on this one. Thanks!

The stretch of river on the Yellowstone beginning at the mouth of the bighorn is a major resting and roost area for the central flyway region in Montana. It provides open water for birds especially when most everything locks up. There can be years where I'd imagine there's 50k plus birds staged down there. People still run the river and hunt for big game and fish.

I don't know how successful waterfowl hunting will be by use of a boat especially when the river starts to push ice. The access to the river would be primarily walk in from private land and that will not be given by very many. Lots of that area is leased out anyways.

Will the Quackheads, Team Waterfowl Whackers and the Aviary Assassins hunt it. You betcha they will. They'll pound that prick daily then wonder why the field hunting has gone to shit in less than two seasons.

Birds will naturally spread out over time. Will it decimate the area no. I'm sure that over time it'll turn into something similar to the horn. Birds will be in the field before sun up because of people running up and down the river. Won't return until dusk and then do it again The next day. I'll mimic @corndog1 if you can't kill birds in the Yellowstone River Valley from Custer to Sidney or up the Bighorn River. You suck as a waterfowl hunter and hunting the roost isn't gonna be any better for you.

It's just the principle of why? What is the point? So we can spread out the pressure on the horn? It's Montana man, we're always looking for more opportunity no matter what species it is. This whole idea to some maybe be the greatest thing to come out in their lifetime. To me it's about as dumb as wanting to generalize special permit elk units to "control" the population. Won't take much to end a good thing.

 

[SAJ-99]

Do the majority of birds roost there?

Yes. It is hard to overlook that eastern MT is high plains and there isn’t a lot of other water, certainly not public. @corndog is correct, and apparently upset with me for saying hunters that support the opening have a point. The birds are there throughout the season because it’s open water (Bighorn dumps warmer water into Yellowstone and keeps it open year round) and because it is a refuge. I thought my idea was a good compromise. The colder it gets, the more birds use it. Just close it Dec 1.

 

[EYJONAS!]

Yes. It is hard to overlook that eastern MT is high plains and there isn’t a lot of other water, certainly not public. @corndog is correct, and apparently upset with me for saying hunters that support the opening have a point. The birds are there throughout the season because it’s open water (Bighorn dumps warmer water into Yellowstone and keeps it open year round) and because it is a refuge. I thought my idea was a good compromise. The colder it gets, the more birds use it. Just close it Dec 1.

I don't think you gain much of anything by hunting it before December 1. Usually the waters are still very open. Even some lakes or pothole areas so birds are dispersed as it is. Like I said in pretty sure there's a decent amount of jet boat activity already for hunting deer and fishing anyways.

 

[Nick87]

Birds will naturally spread out over time. Will it decimate the area no. I'm sure that over time it'll turn into something similar to the horn. Birds will be in the field before sun up because of people running up and down the river. Won't return until dusk and then do it again The next day. I'll mimic @corndog1 if you can't kill birds in the Yellowstone River Valley from Custer to Sidney or up the Bighorn River. You suck as a waterfowl hunter and hunting the roost isn't gonna be any better for you.

It's pretty impressive how well a bird with a brain the size of a pea can adapt to pressure. Hunters who don't know any better will constantly will need this or need that. At the end of the day they just need to hunt a little smarter and harder. No dog in this fight directly. But I can sympathize waterfowl hunters are definitely they're own worst enemy, it's never enough.

 

[Elky Welky]

I don't have a lease. The birds are there because it's a REFUGE jeeezus

It's refuge, I understand that (all of it? The whole 87 miles? This is something I still would like to know).

But it is not "A" refuge. It is not designated by the Federal Government as a wildlife refuge nor as a state WMA. I think this distinction is important to the discussion, because conflating the generic word "refuge" with the designated term of art "a refuge" will not endear advocates to FWP when making arguments one way or another, and can confuse the issues. Sorry if that's too pedantic, but I already got a call from someone today asking about what "refuge" was being talked about, because it isn't a designated refuge on the map.

Thanks @EYJONAS! for the detailed response.