Looking for shoulder season help in region 4

[BuzzH]

Ok just some thought on this subject. So people are opposed to this hunt because the cows being killed are pregnant at the time which in turn is eliminating a future calf from entering the herd. The same is true no matter what time of the year said cow is killed. If she’s killed prior to being pregnant it’s still the same because in almost all cases she would’ve become pregnant. So if a hunter kills a cow elk during this period there’s a chance that that cow was a “mostly” private land cow, and there’s also a chance that cow was a “mostly” public land (Nation Forest) cow. But if a hunter were to shoot a cow during the archery or general season on public land (National Forest) you are almost garenteeing that this cow spends most of the season on public land. So my question is, why are we mad at a Hunter for shooting a cow elk during this season when we congratulate a hunter for filling their tag on a cow during the regular season?

We’re all hunters. There are enough people fighting to take that right away from us. I don’t think we need to help them along by fighting against ourselves. If someone is hunting by legal means, during a legal season, shouldn’t we be happy?

If we think this season shouldn’t exist then let’s try to eliminate it or somehow change it so that it is more favorable. But at this time it is a legal season. We shouldn’t be fighting against our own people.

A lot more to it...read some of the old posts on the subject that I linked to.

The Montana Legislature, FWP, Governors office, and landowners have a deep seated hatred for elk...and they've about ruined all public land elk hunting in the least 15 years. Its not going to get better on public land until significant management changes are made. Changes that are not going to happen until absolute rock and I mean rock fuggin' bottom have been hit. We aren't quite there yet with the 11 weeks of general season pounding, the shoulder seasons are getting us there much quicker, I mean how can 6 month seasons not?

Its a shame that the elk hunting in Montana is as bad as I've seen on public land since I was old enough to hunt (1979). The FWP is stuck in a 1960's time warp, they still think MT has a population of people at about 500K. They still think people hunt with open sighted 30/30's as their primary elk rifle. There has been no technology changes in archery equipment, everyone shoots a long bow with zwickey broadheads and cedar arrow fletched with turkey feathers. Only loggers have 4 wheel drive vehicles, and the ATV hasn't been invented yet. GPS technology is limited to sputnik and area 51...you get the picture.

Same old same old season length as when my Dad started hunting in 1957 and tags are still OTC for residents, and in some cases, NR who were past residents.

Its truly unbelievable...

This isn't about in-fighting, this is about trying to salvage, and in many cases, bring back even a modest hunt quality, and wildlife populations on public land. As foreign as it may sound in the modern world of elk hunting in Montana these days, some people don't prefer begging landowners or paying them to blast a cow elk out of a hayfield. Some still remember the time when you could actually find elk on public land on a rather regular basis.

Its pathetic how wildlife has been squandered and mismanaged in Montana, it truly is.

 

[Cerebral Stalker]

"Changes that are not going to happen until absolute rock and I mean rock fuggin' bottom have been hit."

Seems this is unfortunately the only way things ever improve.

 

[BuzzH]

In 5 years lets talk. Other than that I'm not responding to this type of thread anymore. Attitude isn't good and we have the Legislature just warming up to grease us up. So bend over my friends and enjoy the ram, I mean ride.

I shouldn't respond either...but some small part of me still feels like eventually Montana is going to make some positive changes.

Yeah, Yeah...wishful thinking.

 

[onpoint]

None of us should respond, maybe.
But then who would?
If I could have it to do over, I'd choose to be an outdoorsman who stays outta this crap and just posts pictures of big fish and nice bucks. Maybe.

 

[Bugle 'Em In]

Changes when we hit rock bottom huh? Although I've agree w/ Buzz's stance and thoughts on the shoulder seasons, I'm not sure I agree w/ his thoughts on changes might happen when we hit rock bottom. Buzz has more faith in the hunter population than I do....or perhaps he thinks the changes will come from our legislature? I'm not sure what kind of changes Buzz is referring to, or where they would generate from? I would be interested to read those thoughts on that.

Where I hunt...I listened to hunters complain that they've never seen the elk numbers so low. The "no elk to hunt on public ground" comments were too numerous to count. It wasn't long after season, people started to wonder if there was going to be a shoulder season hunt or late damage hunt. WTF?!?!?

When we're at rock bottom (and yes, we're heading there fast) I think guys will at best complain in public about the crappy hunting opportunities on elk. Won't submit comments to FWP, won't try to fight any causes, only complain. For now, they're much too happy to say each Jan / Feb that they "got their elk this year" and feel like a big shot for a few years...then it'll go back to tag soup for the boys when the "easy" elk hunting is done.

 

[Killergaurd]

Submitted my comments. I will never draw a LE tag again. And commented on the deer proposal. Didnt read it just basically called them fools on there mule deer management tactics.

 

[MTGomer]

Yeh cuz montana residents don't shoot any elk during shoulder season...

You’re right, they shoot a bunch and most love it. Can’t get enough.
It also has nothing to do with me not being bothered by you not coming or tags prices going up.
It does look like you heeded my suggestion. You’re welcome.

 

[bobbydean]

Like the above comment. I do not think I have ever seen Buzz and Noharleyyet post back to back. Two of my favorites and I liked the posts.

 

[jvanhoy]

Sorry gents but hectoring NR’s for doing what your officials sanction is low fruit.

+1. I think I’ve yet to see a post on here from NHY that I don’t agree with. We need to stick together.

 

[kmf]

Everyone complaining about the elk population needs to quit hunting or else you are part of the problem. This includes you Buzz.

 

[kmf]

As we all know this is a tough balance between elk/deer population, quality (antler size, age, health), land ownership, and money (MT state income from license etc, outfitter/private land ownership income/local spending).

A part of me only wants good elk hunting for myself and my family. Of course that is a foolish thought but most of us deep down are that way. I accept and do realize there are millions of good people who enjoy hunting like myself and I wish them the best.

In my eyes the federal land vs private land is the big frustration. The elk have figured out that the private land is the way to go. Where do you go to eat? Do you eat out of the dumpster or go to the garden? That comes down to land management. It’s the same in MN. The deer live like kings on private land and have less pressure from predators.

Commenting through your legislative process is fine but don’t think for a minute that’s going to matter. The best thing I see is to get your State Reps and your U.S. elected Reps in your back pockets. Get to know them on a personal level and give them a unified voice on how they can make the same amount of money in State income but improve hunting quality and opportunity. Unfortunately this is a long process. That is why rich people just buy large tracts of land.

 

[kmf]

My two crushing examples are moose and wolves. The wolves are mostly federal control and we have had a healthy population that has exceeded set goals for 30 years and we have no season and no management.

Moose is all state controlled and this population crashed to almost nothing. No act of Congress was going to save it and no private or state management has improved the population.

Wildlife management and habitat management and land ownership is not easy and there are no silver bullets.

 

[belly-deep]

My two crushing examples are moose and wolves. The wolves are mostly federal control and we have had a healthy population that has exceeded set goals for 30 years and we have no season and no management.

Moose is all state controlled and this population crashed to almost nothing. No act of Congress was going to save it and no private or state management has improved the population.

Wildlife management and habitat management and land ownership is not easy and there are no silver bullets.

Dude....really????

 

[kmf]

Dude....really????

Minnesota.

 

[midwesterncrosshair]

The Montana Legislature, FWP, Governors office, and landowners have a deep seated hatred for elk...and they've about ruined all public land elk hunting in the least 15 years. Its not going to get better on public land until significant management changes are made. Changes that are not going to happen until absolute rock and I mean rock fuggin' bottom have been hit. We aren't quite there yet with the 11 weeks of general season pounding, the shoulder seasons are getting us there much quicker, I mean how can 6 month seasons not?

Its a shame that the elk hunting in Montana is as bad as I've seen on public land since I was old enough to hunt (1979). The FWP is stuck in a 1960's time warp, they still think MT has a population of people at about 500K. They still think people hunt with open sighted 30/30's as their primary elk rifle. There has been no technology changes in archery equipment, everyone shoots a long bow with zwickey broadheads and cedar arrow fletched with turkey feathers. Only loggers have 4 wheel drive vehicles, and the ATV hasn't been invented yet. GPS technology is limited to sputnik and area 51...you get the picture.

I have seen the light... I was one of the NR's who was interested in shoulder season and like said before assumed the population was fine if the season was put in place.

Thanks for the info.

 

[BuzzH]

Everyone complaining about the elk population needs to quit hunting or else you are part of the problem. This includes you Buzz.

Light years ahead of you captain obvious...I haven't bought an elk tag in Montana since 2015 after having one in my pocket every year since 1979. Oh, and the NR tag would only cost me $200 as a Montana Native.

BTW, you're out in left field and really don't know chit from clay about what problems Montana has with elk management.

 

[kmf]

Light years ahead of you captain obvious...I haven't bought an elk tag in Montana since 2015 after having one in my pocket every year since 1979. Oh, and the NR tag would only cost me $200 as a Montana Native.

BTW, you're out in left field and really don't know chit from clay about what problems Montana has with elk management.

Well it’s dark and cold here so I got some time: I’m not arguing with you and even reread the thread. Basically most everyone has the same thoughts. My biggest problem with this is you guys putting down hunters wanting to fill a tag. A cow is a cow is a cow. There is no pregnant cows shot in October? Hunting bulls during the rut doesn’t interfere with breeding? Hunting bulls at their most foolish time of year in the rut? I’m not a fan of the shoulder seasons by the way. But you and some of the loyal members have been pretty harsh on here to other hunters. Honestly they just want to hunt elk and fill a tag with some good meat. This is On Your Own Adventures.

I know you are a good guy but if you reread my post it is fairly accurate to the issues. You said you did comment on the pre legislation so I’m sure it is all going to be fixed.

Tell me where I’m wrong on elk in Montana: too many tags, land ownership, land management, and $$$. I’m honestly interested in being enlightened.

 

[BuzzH]

Well it’s dark and cold here so I got some time: I’m not arguing with you and even reread the thread. Basically most everyone has the same thoughts. My biggest problem with this is you guys putting down hunters wanting to fill a tag. A cow is a cow is a cow. There is no pregnant cows shot in October? Hunting bulls during the rut doesn’t interfere with breeding? Hunting bulls at their most foolish time of year in the rut? I’m not a fan of the shoulder seasons by the way. But you and some of the loyal members have been pretty harsh on here to other hunters. Honestly they just want to hunt elk and fill a tag with some good meat. This is On Your Own Adventures.

I know you are a good guy but if you reread my post it is fairly accurate to the issues. You said you did comment on the pre legislation so I’m sure it is all going to be fixed.

Tell me where I’m wrong on elk in Montana: too many tags, land ownership, land management, and $$$. I’m honestly interested in being enlightened.

I don't think you're wanting to know anything more, your mind is made up, its all about filling a tag. You also don't understand what has happened with elk in Montana...but keep trying to convince yourself its a money, land management, and habitat issue. Just isn't factual, but your story, make it as big as you want.

Your post summed up the problem and why nothing will change until there are no available elk left to "fill tags" with.

For the record, I don't really care anymore, MTFWP can hire wildlife services to gun elk out of a helicopter on private land as far as I'm concerned.

Its a race to the bottom for elk in Montana...and has been for a long, long time.

 

[JLS]

In my eyes the federal land vs private land is the big frustration. The elk have figured out that the private land is the way to go. Where do you go to eat? Do you eat out of the dumpster or go to the garden? That comes down to land management. It’s the same in MN. The deer live like kings on private land and have less pressure from predators.

It’s not a land management issue. It’s a refuge/harboring issue and a resistance by FWP to account for this in their elk management. The only predators that are the pressing issue in this are the hunters lined up to kill elk so FWP can meet or attempt to meet a statutory requirement that elk numbers are within the ranges of social tolerance. There’s plenty of feed, and of good quality on public land. Elk migrate so they don’t get shot, not because they are starving from the dumpster.

 

[BuzzH]

^^^This, plus now, you have generations of elk that never leave private their entire lives. I also believe that, in the case of bachelor herds of bulls in particular, wintering areas and migration corridors have been lost. Elk learn from each other, and when the last ones using a particular wintering area are shot out, it takes a long, long time for other bulls to just up and find those areas on their own...if they ever do.