Liberal press[at it again]

Paul,

Are you really that stupid that you don't understand that single act by that Marine will be used to recruit 1,000 more "terrorists"?

Win the battle...... Lose the war....
 
It still goes back to the fact that this war can be won or lost by the media. The media didn't need to show that, but they have no problem sacrificing american fighting men to advance their anti-bush agenda.

I am kinda disappointed in those headlines though. There has got to be out there that you missed that says "Bush executes helpless children in holy mosque for oil"
 
ElkGunner said:
Paul,

Are you really that stupid that you don't understand that single act by that Marine will be used to recruit 1,000 more "terrorists"?

Win the battle...... Lose the war....
Click to expand...
So given all the facts of the situation, this Marine should have considered the recruitment possibilities of his actions rather than defending his life?

Have you ever heard the saying "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six"?

And Gunner, please put your vast resources to some good use, and tell our military where these 1000 new recruits are, so the Marines can go kill them.
 
ElkGunner said:
Paul,

Are you really that stupid that you don't understand that single act by that Marine will be used to recruit 1,000 more "terrorists"?

Win the battle...... Lose the war....
Click to expand...
\

Gunner,

Are you really that stupid that you don't understand that this happens almost every day the the soldiers have encounters with insurgents?? Are you really that $*)Q!#@$ stupid that you don't have a clue as to how combat operations are being carried out?? Do you think this is an isolated incident??? Your clueless gunner. You can cut and paste shit from whatever sources you choose, however at the end of the day you have no concept or understanding of what is going on in Iraq and what these young soldiers have to deal with.

PS

I thought you took your toybox and left?? What happened?? Did you not have anyone else to blabber to, or does your immediate circle of influence not have time to read all of your cut and paste bullshit.
 
Hangar/Fecl

(since you both came to the same conclusion, I'll address you as the same).

What that Marine did may have saved HIS life, or at least he thought so. I am smart enough to understand that. Alternatively, he may have been so amped up on adrenaline, that he did something that went completely against all the training that the Marines had beaten into him over time since he was inducted. We will only know upon the results of the investigation.

If it turns out that 1,000 more suicide bombers are recruited, and 500 more US Soldiers are killed because of this kid's actions, do you think the Marines are happy?

But, "his" actions are no longer the issue (nor were they CJ's concern when he wanted to bash the "liberal" media). The issue from this point forward is how the now-static video is being played around the world and up and down Arab Street.

If both of you, who generally are two of the brighter people who are always wrong here... hump can't see the political damage and the fact that this kid's actions are now inciting further reactions/recruits then I am amazed.

Win the battle...... Lose the war......


PS. Fecl, I stayed "gone" with my toolbox until the anti-Semitism was deleted. There is no place for anti-Semitism on a hunting forum.
 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41506

NBC cameraman an anti-war activist
Man who shot footage of Fallujah killing has presence on Web
Posted: November 17, 2004
5:00 p.m. Eastern

© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

Kevin Sites, the NBC cameraman who shot video of the controversial shooting of a Fallujah insurgent by a U.S. Marine, is an anti-war activist whose photographs of Iraqi prisoners are featured on at least one anti-war website.

Sites was embedded with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment in Fallujah when he shot the video of the Marine shooting an injured enemy fighter in a mosque. From the dialogue on the footage, it appeared the Marines were unsure if the insurgent was dead or faking death. Some fighters in Iraq have feigned death only to pull out a weapon or blow themselves up to kill Americans.

The U.S. military is investigating the incident to determine what happened and what, if any, punitive action should be taken against the Marine.

Sites was serving as a pool cameraman, giving access to the video to many networks.

Images Against War is one website where Sites' photography appears, giving two separate pages to his work. One of the pages, labeled "Kevin Sites 2," features photos of captured Iraqis with one caption saying detainees on a truck were enduring "a long ride into uncertainty." Most of the photos featured on the site engender sympathy toward U.S. enemy fighters and antipathy toward American military personnel.

Images Against War, which is based in Germany, has a comments page where posters have lashed out at Sites.

"The kindest things I can say about you is that you are a traitor and a terrorist sympathizer," writes one poster. "I would say I feel pity for you, but that would be a lie. All I feel for you is disgust. … Shame on you. I look forward to the day that the betrayal of this Marine haunts your every moment."

Dennis Karr posted: "Kevin Sites has to be the lowest of the low, a traitor for sure, only breathing right now because of our brave soldiers whom he surely hates."

Wrote yet another: "Good luck riding along with our troops now ... you're going to need it."

Sites also has his own blog. Here is part of his entry for Nov. 10, when he was accompanying Marines on their assault on Fallujah:

" The Marines I'm embedded with are nearly ebullient. This looks to be a cakewalk. One jokes they'll be sipping 'pina coladas by the Euphrates River by fifteen-hundred.'"

In his account, Sites describes dead Iraqis in detail and says the Marines are "operating with liberal rules of engagement."

His site includes a disclaimer explaining he is a freelance journalist on assignment for NBC, "but this site is a personal website not affiliated with or funded by NBC News."

Sites' bio says he was captured by Iraqi Fedayeen militia outside Tikrit while traveling with Kurdish fighters and spent four hours in captivity before being released.
 
Here is some more video for you gunner. Some clips have been shown on TV but I have not seen the end played on TV. Its worth watching.

http://news.yahoo.com/p/v?u=/ap_av/20041111/av_ap_wl/466b61a7bf5a62d27dbfff99d7adb434&cid=452&f=53746348",650,450)


I find it odd that you are worried how the arab world will react to this and how you worry that this will galvanize the "arab street" What does the arab street have to say about the CARE lady being mutiliated, Nick Berg having his head sawed off or 50 police men pulled out of a bus and shot in the back of the head. My buddy Doug got back from Fallujah in October and he could tell you of a young boy of 7 who was selling candy to the marines who when found out was hung from a sign and had his belly cut open and his guts hanging out of his body. What does the arab street say of this?? This is arabs killing arabs. Why is there not an outrage from Al-Jazeera on this?? Or the above killings?? Gunner we are dealing with people who are nothing more than rabid dogs and should be treated as such. Will this create more suicide bombers?? To be honest with you gunner, no I don't think it will. These people are already motivated to kill us, and this video will not add to hatred that already is firmly imprinted into the minds of the jihadist movement. Will this get them to come out and fight?? If it does the soldiers will deal with them in a very effecient manner.

To quote my buddy Doug, there is only one thing these guys understand and that is "Force, fear and Violence" We have many a young man over their who are quite good at delivering it.
 
feclnogn said:
To quote my buddy Doug, there is only one thing these guys understand and that is "Force, fear and Violence" We have many a young man over their who are quite good at delivering it.
Click to expand...

Which do you think is the more likely case?

1000 insurgents will see the video and lay down their weapons

or

1000 kids, after seeing the video, in Iraq, Palestine, Syria and elsewhere will sign up to be suicide bombers and earn their Martyrdom?

Win the battle..... Lose the war.....
 
ElkGunner said:
Paul,

Are you really that stupid that you don't understand that single act by that Marine will be used to recruit 1,000 more "terrorists"?

Win the battle...... Lose the war....
Click to expand...

Elkgunner

Are YOU really that stupid that you don't understand that single act by that SPINELESS BLEEDING-HEART ANTI-AMERICAN CAMERAMAN will be used to recruit 1,000 more terrorists ?

He should be shot for treason and the marine should be given a medal .
 
ElkGunner said:
FCB....

Uhhhh.... Lemme' get this straight.... It is now the Cameraman's fault????
Click to expand...
Let me be the first to congratulate you...you got something right.

Yes, it is the cameraman's fault. Actually it is the military's fault for letting a bleeding-heart cameraman film their combat.

How in the hell is our military supposed to fight an effective war if every time they turn around, some bleeding-heart chickenshit is questioning their methods. Don't even start with the "We should be better than them in a moral sense" The only way we should be better is killing a shitload more of them than they kill ours. I believe Gen George Patton said something along the lines of "We win war by forcing the enemy to die..." I'm leaving out the "...for his country" part because these cowards are not under fighting for a country, or wearing a uniform.

Time to let the best military force in the world fight the war their way, not some whiny-ass polite, politically-correct war. Kick the media out of combat units.

Like it has been said, the cameraman should be charged with treason, and the Marine given a medal.

You might as well stop asking questions Gunner, because no one is going to support your "Win the battle...Lose the war" cliche in this case. Nor will you be correct in your recruiting predictions.
 
Hangar,

Interesting what the Marine Corp Commandant said yesterday....

Top Marine: Embedded reporters valuable



Washington, DC, Nov. 17 (UPI) -- The top U.S. Marine Wednesday still wants reporters embedded with the military, despite video footage shot of a Marine killing a wounded Iraqi.

"In my personal opinion, embedded reporters have actually worked very well. They inform the American public about what these great young Americans are doing over there, and a large, large majority are doing... a tremendous job," Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Michael Hagee testified before the House Armed Services Committee.

At least two Democratic members of the committee criticized media coverage of Iraq, particularly in light of the possibly illegal shooting of a wounded Iraqi insurgent by a Marine Saturday. The incident was captured on video by an embedded news crew.

The Marine in question has been removed from the battlefield and there is a criminal investigation into the incident. Killing wounded enemy fighters who do not pose a threat is against the laws of war.
 
I have read through this thread and think you guys are missing what Elkgunner is saying. Have any of you read the British Army's critique of the way the U.S. Military approaches the insurgents?

The British Army, which has a lot of experience with this exact same problem in Northern Ireland, says our approach is wrong. It only reinforces the idea that the U.S. is in Iraq as an Occupying power.

I haven't read where Elkgunner has crucified the marine for doing what he did. He has just pointed out how this was playing out in the rest of the world. I don't know why the camera man was on patrol with that squad but the Marines felt it was valuable to have him there.

I think there was a real tatical misjudgement a long time ago when we allowed places like Fallujah to become havens for insurgents. If this was anyone's fault it is the senior commands problems and not this young marine's. The camera man was doing what he is paid by the networks to do. Good or bad that is what a free press means.

Nemont
 
I can completely see what Gunner's point was. The point I would like to make, and have done so in a somewhat muddy manner, is whether the perception of what is in the video is what makes it bad, or are the actions within the video are what make it bad. It is a subjectivity / objectivity issue. It is the actions that must be judged, and judged by people qualified to make these judgements. They should not be judged by people with a predisposition, i.e., the liberal (and anti-semetic) media that CJ first pointed to. The media continues to strive to form public opinion, regardless of the results of the investigation. As Gunner correctly pointed out, the actions of the Marine are no longer the issue. It is for this reason that I think the news media should not have a free reign while directly covering combat.

I do have a problem with Gunner's pasting articles that only express the degree of outrage this incident has caused around the world, and NONE of which even begin to give the Marine the benefit of good judgement. Maybe I am not seeing beyond what I generally do, which is post documentation that supports my point of view (as in the WSJ editorial posted yesterday). This shows me that while Gunner is trying to make a valid point, he is not willing to express any personal support of what the Marine did, or even give him the benefit of the doubt, which is exactly what the liberal (and anti-semetic) world media is doing. It pisses me off to no end that our boys are getting the shit end of the stick before the facts come out.
 
Nemont I do understand what gunner is saying. What I am trying to say it we should not give a shit what the world thinks when we ask our soldiers to go into combat. These guys need to do what they need to do to come home safe at the end of the day.

Should we redo the rules of engagement for the Marines to apease the world opinion?? I don't think anyone here would say yes to that as that will lead to more dead marines. I do agree with you on Falluja. My buddy Doug was one of the marines in April who was fighting over there. His company was kicking ass and had the bad guys on the run. I asked him what they thought about being pulled out and he said it was like having your big brother push you down the stairs. Every day until his company left his Marines were asking when they were going to be able to finish the job. They rotated out and did not get to finish what they had started in April. Calling off the original Fallujah engagement was one of the biggest foul ups of the war IMO.

Gunner, Doug told me he had no issue what at all with embed reporters. He told the embeds that his oath to protect the constitution included the 1st Amendment rights of a free press. He said some of the reporters were nothing but snivling little cowards, but he had very high compliments for the vast majority of them He even said that some had balls that riveled the size of his Marines and he respected that. He did ask the reporters to realize that a good portion of his men were only a year or two removed from high school and as such would make some mistakes and to keep that in mind when reporting.
 
Look what happened in Fallujah now....

Which is worse, waving a white flag and then firing on the US Soldiers or US Soldier shooting a wounded insurgent in a mosque? Or is all just "war", so neither one is wrong, or as somebody said earlier, they ought to give them a medal????? :confused:

Violence sweeps through Baghdad
Insurgents fire on U.S. troops in Fallujah after waving white flag


A U.S. Army and an Iraqi Army soldier check for insurgent activity in a village on the outskirts of Mosul.
Jim Macmillan / the Associated Press

By Robert H. Reid
Associated Press

Baghdad, Iraq — Insurgents battled American troops in the streets of Baghdad on Saturday, killing a U.S. soldier in an ambush and gunning down four government employees in signals that the guerrillas remain a potent force despite the fall of their stronghold of Fallujah. Nine Iraqis also died in fighting west of the capital.
In Fallujah, where U.S. Marines and soldiers are still battling pockets of resistance, insurgents waved a white flag of surrender before opening fire on U.S. troops and causing casualties, Marine spokesman 1st Lt. Lyle Gilbert said Saturday without elaborating. =W

Al-Arabiya television quoted Iraqi guerrillas fleeing Fallujah as saying they had run out of ammunition and many fighters who stayed behind were badly wounded.

U.S. troops in the northern city of Mosul found the bodies of nine Iraqi soldiers Saturday, all shot in the back of the head. The military first reported that seven of the victims were beheaded, but a second statement issued later Saturday said those reports were false.

Four decapitated bodies found earlier in the week in Mosul have not been identified, the military said Saturday. American and Iraqi forces detained 30 suspected guerrillas overnight in Mosul, the U.S. military said.

In a positive development, a Polish woman abducted last month in Baghdad reappeared Saturday in Poland after being suddenly released.

Teresa Borcz Khalifa, 54, refused to say how she was freed but said her captors treated her "properly" — treatment that they told her was "motivated by their religious beliefs."

And did you see where the Polish lady was released, unharmed? :)
 
I guess gunners right. We should be fighting a more "sensitive" war.

Yea right. This news footage will not make one more person hate us that doesn't already hate us. Remember the sentiment from the middle east after 911? Time to kill the cancer IMO.

Paul
 
Read this from the reporter himself. You should probably take a look at the Worldnet Daily site , too. They should be called the Worldnet Daily Enquirer. Anyone would have to be crazy to give them any credibility.


"Since the shooting in the mosque, I've been haunted that I have not been able to tell you directly what I saw or explain the process by which the world came to see it as well. As you know, I'm not some war-zone tourist with a camera who doesn't understand that ugly things happen in combat. I've spent most of the last five years covering global conflict. But I have never in my career been a "gotcha" reporter -- hoping for people to commit wrongdoings so I can catch them at it.


This week I've even been shocked to see myself painted as some kind of anti-war activist. Anyone who has seen my reporting on television or has read my dispatches is fully aware of the lengths I've gone to play it straight down the middle -- not to become a tool of propaganda for the left or the right.

But I find myself a lightning rod for controversy in reporting what I saw occur in front of me, camera rolling.

It's time you to have the facts from me, in my own words, about what I saw -- without imposing on that Marine -- guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds about whether you think what I did was right or wrong. All the other armchair analysts don't mean a damn to me.

Here it goes.

Nov. 13, 2004
It's Saturday morning and we're still at our strong point from the night before, a clearing between a set of buildings on the southern edge of the city. The advance has been swift, but pockets of resistance still exist. In fact, we're taking sniper fire from both the front and the rear..........................."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6556034/
 
Yes I did , comments are as follows ; give the Marine a medal and try the reporter for treason .
EG ,
The images of our planes flying into the world trade centers will be forever burned into my memory , I cannot find any place in my heart for those who hate us so much .
 
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